Discussion:
[MG] Any thoughts on shadowing a local government?
Scott Raney
2018-06-12 01:12:58 UTC
Permalink
I've got proxyfor.me updated to the latest versions of the frameworks
and the bugs fixed and am setting it up to do a shadow of a local
government for the next round of beta testing. Any of you have any
experience or suggestions for how/where to do this?

Some of the issues/constraints:
1) It's of course got to be an English-speaking area (I've got a
design for wiring in automatic translation, but that will have to wait
for some future version).

2) One of the things I plan to test is the proposal of allowing people
to collect their name off of the public voter rolls to do
authentication (I'm planning to allow people outside the area to
participate, but to keep the votes separated (registered in the
locality vs. other)). In Colorado that database is available for $50
(it's *much* more expensive in most other states, and many of them
require you to contact *each county* to build a statewide list).
Colorado also has an easy-to-use web site that will allow people to
look up their registration. I'm thinking to key off of the voterID
field, which is something no one would know or be able to spoof unless
it's their own registration (they use their name, zip, and birthday on
the State's site to look up their voterID, and the birthday isn't in
the public database). Unless of course they bought the database
themselves: I'm thinking to check for fraud via that by recording some
sort of device fingerprint to make sure that no more than a few
account creations come from any one machine. There are several
libraries out there that do this, and if a machine is flagged we then
use that to block entire IP address ranges. Given the massive number
of attacks against matchism.org from Russia and Ukraine I've had to
deal with (they've even cracked all of the CAPTCHA routines!) I'm
tempted to just ban those entire countries from accessing proxyfor.me
until we're ready to replace their governments with new ones that
aren't so tolerant toward, or even directly engaging in, this sort of
antisocial behavior.

3) The locality has got to have good public information sites,
including all the handouts that the local council members use to make
their decisions.

4) Choosing a combined city+county is appealing because ultimately
we'll get to dealing with the revenue side (budgeting), and the
majority of that comes from property taxes which are set by counties.
Surprisingly there are only a couple dozen examples of this in the US,
so I may have to work around this somehow eventually.

5) Even so, I'm going to have to extensively prune the list of
proposals: As is the case for the US congress the majority of things
voted on at the City/County level are non-substantive (like
recognizing national hot-dog day!) and there's no need to waste The
People's time on that crap.

I'm mostly looking at Denver (around 700K population), which meets all
the requirements above, but would like to consider others even if they
don't. The tradeoffs seem to be that big cities have a lot more varied
topics, but most of that relates to managing concessions (Denver city
council spends almost half of its time dealing with the airport and
the various sports and entertainment venues they own). That's boring
and IMHO not something the government should be micromanaging anyway
(i.e., the management itself should be contracted out). Boulder
(population 100K) would actually be almost ideal because of the
manageable size combined with a high participation rate (more people
typically show up for Boulder city council meetings than in Denver
despite the huge population difference, and Boulder has the most
awesome access to documents of any city I've seen), but I frequently
have to deal with the City of Boulder for various reasons (mostly
related to our rental properties) and so am somewhat reluctant to
paint a target on my back...

Any other factors or places I should consider?
Regards,
Scott
harold l Carpenter
2018-06-12 23:54:57 UTC
Permalink
dealing with anti-socials is a real thing, however they to need to be
seen and heard, the whole world must have a bully somewhere. I believe
search co's do have the problem in tow.
harold l carpenter
free market democracy
Post by Scott Raney
I've got proxyfor.me updated to the latest versions of the frameworks
and the bugs fixed and am setting it up to do a shadow of a local
government for the next round of beta testing. Any of you have any
experience or suggestions for how/where to do this?
1) It's of course got to be an English-speaking area (I've got a
design for wiring in automatic translation, but that will have to wait
for some future version).
2) One of the things I plan to test is the proposal of allowing people
to collect their name off of the public voter rolls to do
authentication (I'm planning to allow people outside the area to
participate, but to keep the votes separated (registered in the
locality vs. other)). In Colorado that database is available for $50
(it's *much* more expensive in most other states, and many of them
require you to contact *each county* to build a statewide list).
Colorado also has an easy-to-use web site that will allow people to
look up their registration. I'm thinking to key off of the voterID
field, which is something no one would know or be able to spoof unless
it's their own registration (they use their name, zip, and birthday on
the State's site to look up their voterID, and the birthday isn't in
the public database). Unless of course they bought the database
themselves: I'm thinking to check for fraud via that by recording some
sort of device fingerprint to make sure that no more than a few
account creations come from any one machine. There are several
libraries out there that do this, and if a machine is flagged we then
use that to block entire IP address ranges. Given the massive number
of attacks against matchism.org from Russia and Ukraine I've had to
deal with (they've even cracked all of the CAPTCHA routines!) I'm
tempted to just ban those entire countries from accessing proxyfor.me
until we're ready to replace their governments with new ones that
aren't so tolerant toward, or even directly engaging in, this sort of
antisocial behavior.
3) The locality has got to have good public information sites,
including all the handouts that the local council members use to make
their decisions.
4) Choosing a combined city+county is appealing because ultimately
we'll get to dealing with the revenue side (budgeting), and the
majority of that comes from property taxes which are set by counties.
Surprisingly there are only a couple dozen examples of this in the US,
so I may have to work around this somehow eventually.
5) Even so, I'm going to have to extensively prune the list of
proposals: As is the case for the US congress the majority of things
voted on at the City/County level are non-substantive (like
recognizing national hot-dog day!) and there's no need to waste The
People's time on that crap.
I'm mostly looking at Denver (around 700K population), which meets all
the requirements above, but would like to consider others even if they
don't. The tradeoffs seem to be that big cities have a lot more varied
topics, but most of that relates to managing concessions (Denver city
council spends almost half of its time dealing with the airport and
the various sports and entertainment venues they own). That's boring
and IMHO not something the government should be micromanaging anyway
(i.e., the management itself should be contracted out). Boulder
(population 100K) would actually be almost ideal because of the
manageable size combined with a high participation rate (more people
typically show up for Boulder city council meetings than in Denver
despite the huge population difference, and Boulder has the most
awesome access to documents of any city I've seen), but I frequently
have to deal with the City of Boulder for various reasons (mostly
related to our rental properties) and so am somewhat reluctant to
paint a target on my back...
Any other factors or places I should consider?
Regards,
Scott
_______________________________________________
Start : a mailing list of the Metagovernment project
http://www.metagovernment.org/
http://metagovernment.org/mailman/listinfo/start_metagovernment.org
Jacopo Tolja
2018-06-13 10:51:04 UTC
Permalink
As you consider translating in other languages, i can share the experience
of Airesis.
Language files remain separated from software in a paraghraph numbered file
that when posted on crowdin translation specifically designed web site,
this permit us to receive a lot of volunteer translators and we where able
to translate in 13 languages at no cost. If proxyfor.me is opensource, the
crowdin service is free.
I will suggest also to consider registering domain for the specific
language where will be used, in italian proxyfor.me does not mean nothing
and will not be considered with that name

Ciao
j
Post by harold l Carpenter
dealing with anti-socials is a real thing, however they to need to be
seen and heard, the whole world must have a bully somewhere. I believe
search co's do have the problem in tow.
harold l carpenter
free market democracy
Post by Scott Raney
I've got proxyfor.me updated to the latest versions of the frameworks
and the bugs fixed and am setting it up to do a shadow of a local
government for the next round of beta testing. Any of you have any
experience or suggestions for how/where to do this?
1) It's of course got to be an English-speaking area (I've got a
design for wiring in automatic translation, but that will have to wait
for some future version).
2) One of the things I plan to test is the proposal of allowing people
to collect their name off of the public voter rolls to do
authentication (I'm planning to allow people outside the area to
participate, but to keep the votes separated (registered in the
locality vs. other)). In Colorado that database is available for $50
(it's *much* more expensive in most other states, and many of them
require you to contact *each county* to build a statewide list).
Colorado also has an easy-to-use web site that will allow people to
look up their registration. I'm thinking to key off of the voterID
field, which is something no one would know or be able to spoof unless
it's their own registration (they use their name, zip, and birthday on
the State's site to look up their voterID, and the birthday isn't in
the public database). Unless of course they bought the database
themselves: I'm thinking to check for fraud via that by recording some
sort of device fingerprint to make sure that no more than a few
account creations come from any one machine. There are several
libraries out there that do this, and if a machine is flagged we then
use that to block entire IP address ranges. Given the massive number
of attacks against matchism.org from Russia and Ukraine I've had to
deal with (they've even cracked all of the CAPTCHA routines!) I'm
tempted to just ban those entire countries from accessing proxyfor.me
until we're ready to replace their governments with new ones that
aren't so tolerant toward, or even directly engaging in, this sort of
antisocial behavior.
3) The locality has got to have good public information sites,
including all the handouts that the local council members use to make
their decisions.
4) Choosing a combined city+county is appealing because ultimately
we'll get to dealing with the revenue side (budgeting), and the
majority of that comes from property taxes which are set by counties.
Surprisingly there are only a couple dozen examples of this in the US,
so I may have to work around this somehow eventually.
5) Even so, I'm going to have to extensively prune the list of
proposals: As is the case for the US congress the majority of things
voted on at the City/County level are non-substantive (like
recognizing national hot-dog day!) and there's no need to waste The
People's time on that crap.
I'm mostly looking at Denver (around 700K population), which meets all
the requirements above, but would like to consider others even if they
don't. The tradeoffs seem to be that big cities have a lot more varied
topics, but most of that relates to managing concessions (Denver city
council spends almost half of its time dealing with the airport and
the various sports and entertainment venues they own). That's boring
and IMHO not something the government should be micromanaging anyway
(i.e., the management itself should be contracted out). Boulder
(population 100K) would actually be almost ideal because of the
manageable size combined with a high participation rate (more people
typically show up for Boulder city council meetings than in Denver
despite the huge population difference, and Boulder has the most
awesome access to documents of any city I've seen), but I frequently
have to deal with the City of Boulder for various reasons (mostly
related to our rental properties) and so am somewhat reluctant to
paint a target on my back...
Any other factors or places I should consider?
Regards,
Scott
_______________________________________________
Start : a mailing list of the Metagovernment project
http://www.metagovernment.org/
http://metagovernment.org/mailman/listinfo/start_metagovernment.org
_______________________________________________
Start : a mailing list of the Metagovernment project
http://www.metagovernment.org/
Manage subscription: http://metagovernment.org/mailman/listinfo/start_
metagovernment.org
Scott Raney
2018-06-13 15:49:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jacopo Tolja
As you consider translating in other languages, i can share the experience
of Airesis.
Thanks!
Post by Jacopo Tolja
Language files remain separated from software in a paraghraph numbered file
that when posted on crowdin translation specifically designed web site, this
permit us to receive a lot of volunteer translators and we where able to
translate in 13 languages at no cost. If proxyfor.me is opensource, the
crowdin service is free.
I considered this, but ruled it out as too unwieldy: Not only do you
have to translate the proposal but *all* of the supporting material
*and* all of the posts anyone makes about it. Worse, unlike automated
translation we inherently can't trust human translation because of the
inevitable bias introduced (perception influenced by personality type
at best, deliberate attempts to mislead at worst). I've even ruled out
coding the language in the URL as you sometimes see
(https://www.whatever.org/en/someurl) because bookmarks and marketing
become a nightmare if you do that. Instead the translation will be
automatic for *each* URL with target language set as a user preference
selected from a toplevel menu in the menu bar. Chrome already
automatically does a serviceable job at this now when navigating
around in a site in a different language and we can make this even
more seamless in a site designed to support it. We even have multiple
choices of translators now: AWS just introduced their own alternative
to Google Translate. Automatic translation isn't perfect and I'm sure
it's better for us English speakers than for everyone else (I've used
it a fair amount lately, mostly reading about the Rousseau and LQFB
systems), but it'll continue to get better and, after all, we've got
to consider this a long-term project ;-)
Post by Jacopo Tolja
I will suggest also to consider registering domain for the specific language
where will be used, in italian proxyfor.me does not mean nothing and will
not be considered with that name
Unlike, say, "Airesis" which makes sense in every language ;-) We may
need to do this eventually, but they'll all have to be simple
redirects to be used for marketing, not actual mirror sites...
Regards,
Scott

PS: I'm kind of surprised that no one has posted any horror stories
about dealing with the core problem in my post: How to shadow an
existing government. Is it really the case that no one has done this
yet?
Post by Jacopo Tolja
Post by harold l Carpenter
dealing with anti-socials is a real thing, however they to need to be
seen and heard, the whole world must have a bully somewhere. I believe
search co's do have the problem in tow.
Dealing with anti-social *individuals* I think is a relatively easy
problem compare with dealing with coordinated attacks by
organizations, especially state-sponsored groups. If any of these DD
systems gains enough traction to start to be seen as a reasonable form
of government the attacks it will have to withstand from autocratic
regimes will make what the Russians did in the 2016 US election look
like "pong" by comparison.
Regards,
Scott
Post by Jacopo Tolja
Post by harold l Carpenter
harold l carpenter
free market democracy
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