Discussion:
[MG] Please take a Big 5 test!
Scott Raney
2016-10-09 16:02:42 UTC
Permalink
After reading Patrick's message it occurs to me that people may not
really grok what's involved in my proposal, so I invite you to take a
Big 5 inventory to see what it'll actually be like. There are several
of these on the Internet, but they're all basically the same (e.g., my
results are very consistent between them). They all claim to take
about 10 minutes, but if you're any good at taking tests it really
only takes about half that. I recommend:

http://www.outofservice.com/bigfive/

At the end of that you get the raw numbers in the URL line. Mine says:
?oR=0.875&cR=0.833&eR=0.562&aR=0.25&nR=0.281

This in the "OCEAN" order:
Openness: 0.875
Conscientiousness: 0.833
Extroversion: 0.562
Agreeableness: 0.25
Neurosis:0.281

Please show us yours, then tell us:
1) Do you agree with the assessment?
2) Would you be concerned about having this information become public?

As for me, I don't worry about #2 because I know that anyone with even
a little bit of skill in this field could make a very accurate
prediction of these values just from reading my posts to this list.
But not everyone posts (anywhere) and those are exactly the people
(probably low Extraversion and/or high Neuroticism) who are most
poorly represented in our current government systems. One of the
"known unknowns" is how people will react to being asked to do this,
and how extensive the marketing effort that would be required to
convince them that it's really OK (again, it's not anything that
people who have spent more than 5 minutes with you in person don't
already know. Certainly it's far less personally revealing than
posting a picture of yourself on Facebook).

We could potentially save participants some time by cutting out the
questions for 2 of the 5 dimensions (Extroversion and Agreeableness)
which only have a low correlation with ideology, though I'm not as
sure that it won't matter in my direct-voting proposal, which will
almost certainly pick up on things that ideology/party affiliation
measures are simply missing.

There's also a "short form" that sacrifices a little bit of accuracy
to save about half the time (they claim 5 minutes), but again, I'm
inclined to use the standard version to improve accuracy and also
collect the full set of data to make this research publishable
eventually:

http://gosling.psy.utexas.edu/scales-weve-developed/ten-item-personality-measure-tipi/

For further exploration on the subject I recommend
http://www.truity.com/. They also have a Briggs-Meyers test, an older
but more comprehensive inventory/theory. Also see the "Personality
Types" tab and see if you think you can make voting predictions based
on the 16 types. Unfortunately for all the stuff on that site, there
is very little about how personality and politics interact, something
I find generally true of the research in this field. They probably
rightfully reject the idea that choice of politician in a conventional
voting system tells you much about people, but seem to never consider
how personality will make a very big difference in a true direct
democracy.

Note that none of this precludes using different personality
inventories instead of/in addition to big 5. In fact in the long run
I'm sure we'll need to develop a custom inventory that's specifically
designed to facilitate matching on public policy issues. But that's a
big project and would require massive amounts of data to achieve
anywhere near what I believe we can achieve immediately with the
incredibly well-validated big 5 inventory.
Regards,
Scott
Flash Cards
2016-10-09 17:36:14 UTC
Permalink
Hope this helps you: ?oR=0.825&cR=0.556&eR=0.344&aR=0.667&nR=0.625


1) To answer agree/disagree question I would need to know where other people I know are relative to me on this test. These numbers do feel like a straightforward conversion of my answers, though. I also think there is a large self-reporting bias in this assessment.


2) I am not concerned. And I doubt these numbers reveal my political views.


How about matching those numbers to preferences on specific issues?

Regards

From: Scott Raney <***@gmail.com>
To: Metagovernment Project <***@metagovernment.org>
Sent: Sunday, October 9, 2016 9:02 AM
Subject: [MG] Please take a Big 5 test!

After reading Patrick's message it occurs to me that people may not
really grok what's involved in my proposal, so I invite you to take a
Big 5 inventory to see what it'll actually be like. There are several
of these on the Internet, but they're all basically the same (e.g., my
results are very consistent between them). They all claim to take
about 10 minutes, but if you're any good at taking tests it really
only takes about half that. I recommend:

http://www.outofservice.com/bigfive/

At the end of that you get the raw numbers in the URL line. Mine says:
?oR=0.875&cR=0.833&eR=0.562&aR=0.25&nR=0.281

This in the "OCEAN" order:
Openness: 0.875
Conscientiousness: 0.833
Extroversion: 0.562
Agreeableness: 0.25
Neurosis:0.281

Please show us yours, then tell us:
1) Do you agree with the assessment?
2) Would you be concerned about having this information become public?

As for me, I don't worry about #2 because I know that anyone with even
a little bit of skill in this field could make a very accurate
prediction of these values just from reading my posts to this list.
But not everyone posts (anywhere) and those are exactly the people
(probably low Extraversion and/or high Neuroticism) who are most
poorly represented in our current government systems. One of the
"known unknowns" is how people will react to being asked to do this,
and how extensive the marketing effort that would be required to
convince them that it's really OK (again, it's not anything that
people who have spent more than 5 minutes with you in person don't
already know. Certainly it's far less personally revealing than
posting a picture of yourself on Facebook).

We could potentially save participants some time by cutting out the
questions for 2 of the 5 dimensions (Extroversion and Agreeableness)
which only have a low correlation with ideology, though I'm not as
sure that it won't matter in my direct-voting proposal, which will
almost certainly pick up on things that ideology/party affiliation
measures are simply missing.

There's also a "short form" that sacrifices a little bit of accuracy
to save about half the time (they claim 5 minutes), but again, I'm
inclined to use the standard version to improve accuracy and also
collect the full set of data to make this research publishable
eventually:

http://gosling.psy.utexas.edu/scales-weve-developed/ten-item-personality-measure-tipi/

For further exploration on the subject I recommend
http://www.truity.com/. They also have a Briggs-Meyers test, an older
but more comprehensive inventory/theory. Also see the "Personality
Types"  tab and see if you think you can make voting predictions based
on the 16 types. Unfortunately for all the stuff on that site, there
is very little about how personality and politics interact, something
I find generally true of the research in this field. They probably
rightfully reject the idea that choice of politician in a conventional
voting system tells you much about people, but seem to never consider
how personality will make a very big difference in a true direct
democracy.

Note that none of this precludes using different personality
inventories instead of/in addition to big 5. In fact in the long run
I'm sure we'll need to develop a custom inventory that's specifically
designed to facilitate matching on public policy issues. But that's a
big project and would require massive amounts of data to achieve
anywhere near what I believe we can achieve immediately with the
incredibly well-validated big 5 inventory.
  Regards,
    Scott
Flash Cards
2016-10-09 23:25:44 UTC
Permalink
Scott's self-rating is #1, and Ned's rating of Scott is #2:http://www.outofservice.com/bigfive/results/?oR=0.875&cR=0.833&eR=0.562&aR=0.25&nR=0.281&o2=12&c2=64&e2=79&a2=1&n2=18&y=1940&g=m
Scott, there is a huge difference in your assessment on the openness measure. Is overall agreement still withing the tolerance? Or does it mean that (at least) one of you (Scott or Ned) cannot be trusted on psychological profiling?
Regards


From: Ned Conner <***@earthlink.net>
To: Metagovernment Project <***@metagovernment.org>
Sent: Sunday, October 9, 2016 3:01 PM
Subject: Re: [MG] Please take a Big 5 test!

Below are various results (the links work, at least for me): Ned's (my) self-rating is #1, and Ned's rating of Scott is #2:http://www.outofservice.com/bigfive/results/?oR=0.775&cR=0.778&eR=0.469&aR=0.639&nR=0.25&o2=12&c2=64&e2=79&a2=1&n2=18&y=1940&g=m Scott's self-rating is #1, and Ned's rating of Scott is #2:http://www.outofservice.com/bigfive/results/?oR=0.875&cR=0.833&eR=0.562&aR=0.25&nR=0.281&o2=12&c2=64&e2=79&a2=1&n2=18&y=1940&g=m
Ned's self-rating is #1, and Scott's self-rating is #2:http://www.outofservice.com/bigfive/results/?oR=0.775&cR=0.778&eR=0.469&aR=0.639&nR=0.25&o2=83&c2=89&e2=48&a2=1&n2=11&y=1940&g=m FlashCard's self-rating is #1, and Scott's self-rating is #2:http://www.outofservice.com/bigfive/results/?oR=0.825&cR=0.556&eR=0.344&aR=0.667&nR=0.625&o2=83&c2=89&e2=48&a2=1&n2=11&y=1940&g=m FlashCard's self-rating is #1, and Ned's self-rating is #2:http://www.outofservice.com/bigfive/results/?oR=0.825&cR=0.556&eR=0.344&aR=0.667&nR=0.625&o2=65&c2=83&e2=31&a2=44&n2=9&y=1940&g=m

On 2016-10-09 10:36, Flash Cards wrote:

Hope this helps you: ?oR=0.825&cR=0.556&eR=0.344&aR=0.667&nR=0.625


1) To answer agree/disagree question I would need to know where other people I know are relative to me on this test. These numbers do feel like a straightforward conversion of my answers, though. I also think there is a large self-reporting bias in this assessment.


2) I am not concerned. And I doubt these numbers reveal my political views.


How about matching those numbers to preferences on specific issues?

Regards

From: Scott Raney <***@gmail.com>
To: Metagovernment Project <***@metagovernment.org>
Sent: Sunday, October 9, 2016 9:02 AM
Subject: [MG] Please take a Big 5 test!

After reading Patrick's message it occurs to me that people may not
really grok what's involved in my proposal, so I invite you to take a
Big 5 inventory to see what it'll actually be like. There are several
of these on the Internet, but they're all basically the same (e.g., my
results are very consistent between them). They all claim to take
about 10 minutes, but if you're any good at taking tests it really
only takes about half that. I recommend:

http://www.outofservice.com/bigfive/

At the end of that you get the raw numbers in the URL line. Mine says:
?oR=0.875&cR=0.833&eR=0.562&aR=0.25&nR=0.281

This in the "OCEAN" order:
Openness: 0.875
Conscientiousness: 0.833
Extroversion: 0.562
Agreeableness: 0.25
Neurosis:0.281

Please show us yours, then tell us:
1) Do you agree with the assessment?
2) Would you be concerned about having this information become public?

As for me, I don't worry about #2 because I know that anyone with even
a little bit of skill in this field could make a very accurate
prediction of these values just from reading my posts to this list.
But not everyone posts (anywhere) and those are exactly the people
(probably low Extraversion and/or high Neuroticism) who are most
poorly represented in our current government systems. One of the
"known unknowns" is how people will react to being asked to do this,
and how extensive the marketing effort that would be required to
convince them that it's really OK (again, it's not anything that
people who have spent more than 5 minutes with you in person don't
already know. Certainly it's far less personally revealing than
posting a picture of yourself on Facebook).

We could potentially save participants some time by cutting out the
questions for 2 of the 5 dimensions (Extroversion and Agreeableness)
which only have a low correlation with ideology, though I'm not as
sure that it won't matter in my direct-voting proposal, which will
almost certainly pick up on things that ideology/party affiliation
measures are simply missing.

There's also a "short form" that sacrifices a little bit of accuracy
to save about half the time (they claim 5 minutes), but again, I'm
inclined to use the standard version to improve accuracy and also
collect the full set of data to make this research publishable
eventually:

http://gosling.psy.utexas.edu/scales-weve-developed/ten-item-personality-measure-tipi/

For further exploration on the subject I recommend
http://www.truity.com/. They also have a Briggs-Meyers test, an older
but more comprehensive inventory/theory. Also see the "Personality
Types"  tab and see if you think you can make voting predictions based
on the 16 types. Unfortunately for all the stuff on that site, there
is very little about how personality and politics interact, something
I find generally true of the research in this field. They probably
rightfully reject the idea that choice of politician in a conventional
voting system tells you much about people, but seem to never consider
how personality will make a very big difference in a true direct
democracy.

Note that none of this precludes using different personality
inventories instead of/in addition to big 5. In fact in the long run
I'm sure we'll need to develop a custom inventory that's specifically
designed to facilitate matching on public policy issues. But that's a
big project and would require massive amounts of data to achieve
anywhere near what I believe we can achieve immediately with the
incredibly well-validated big 5 inventory.
  Regards,
    Scott

_______________________________________________
Start : a mailing list of the Metagovernment project
http://www.metagovernment.org/
Post to the list: ***@metagovernment.org
Manage subscription: http://metagovernment.org/mailman/listinfo/start_metagovernment.org




_______________________________________________
Start : a mailing list of the Metagovernment project
http://www.metagovernment.org/
Post to the list: ***@metagovernment.org
Manage subscription: http://metagovernment.org/mailman/listinfo/start_metagovernment.org
Scott Raney
2016-10-09 23:51:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Flash Cards
http://www.outofservice.com/bigfive/results/?oR=0.875&cR=0.833&eR=0.562&aR=0.25&nR=0.281&o2=12&c2=64&e2=79&a2=1&n2=18&y=1940&g=m
Scott, there is a huge difference in your assessment on the openness
measure. Is overall agreement still withing the tolerance? Or does it mean
that (at least) one of you (Scott or Ned) cannot be trusted on psychological
profiling?
Well, neither, probably. The real problem is that Ned doesn't actually
know me other than as a bully shooting down his ideas. I'm sure there
is a skill of assessing people's personality via email/blog
posts/twitter/etc., but it's never going to be anywhere near as
accurate as if you'd actually spent significant real-world time with
someone.

But bottom line I think this kind of discrepancy doesn't matter at
all: AutoMatch is a very convenient feature, but it's only there as an
assistant: If you fill out a delusional inventory form, or try to game
the system by appearing to be someone you're not, it's really only
going to make it less useful for *you, because you'll find the vote it
calculates for you won't match how you'd actually vote (if you took
the time to learn everything you need to know about an issue). It'll
still be useful to people who don't have an agenda other than making
sure their opinions count. In general, your self report will have a
very high correlation with inventories filled out by people who know
you well and so *will* be useful when matched with other people who
are also playing it straight.
Regards,
Scott
Flash Cards
2016-10-10 17:09:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Raney
But bottom line I think this kind of discrepancy doesn't matter at
all: AutoMatch is a very convenient feature, but it's only there as an
This is something new. Until recently you were insisting that other means of choosing delegates (other than your matching system) would be at disadvantage. For example, if I were to choose my own delegate based on my own judgment, you would require that I always vote directly. Essentially, you wanted to save me from myself (claiming that I will fall asleep), just like representative democracy proponents, or direct democracy purists. Just like them, you were happily infringing on my right to use my own vote according to my conscience.
Regards,Sergey

From: Scott Raney <***@gmail.com>
To: Metagovernment Project <***@metagovernment.org>
Sent: Sunday, October 9, 2016 4:51 PM
Subject: Re: [MG] Please take a Big 5 test!
Post by Scott Raney
http://www.outofservice.com/bigfive/results/?oR=0.875&cR=0.833&eR=0.562&aR=0.25&nR=0.281&o2=12&c2=64&e2=79&a2=1&n2=18&y=1940&g=m
Scott, there is a huge difference in your assessment on the openness
measure. Is overall agreement still withing the tolerance? Or does it mean
that (at least) one of you (Scott or Ned) cannot be trusted on psychological
profiling?
Well, neither, probably. The real problem is that Ned doesn't actually
know me other than as a bully shooting down his ideas. I'm sure there
is a skill of assessing people's personality via email/blog
posts/twitter/etc., but it's never going to be anywhere near as
accurate as if you'd actually spent significant real-world time with
someone.

But bottom line I think this kind of discrepancy doesn't matter at
all: AutoMatch is a very convenient feature, but it's only there as an
assistant: If you fill out a delusional inventory form, or try to game
the system by appearing to be someone you're not, it's really only
going to make it less useful for *you, because you'll find the vote it
calculates for you won't match how you'd actually vote (if you took
the time to learn everything you need to know about an issue). It'll
still be useful to people who don't have an agenda other than making
sure their opinions count. In general, your self report will have a
very high correlation with inventories filled out by people who know
you well and so *will* be useful when matched with other people who
are also playing it straight.
  Regards,
    Scott
Scott Raney
2016-10-11 01:59:41 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 11:09 AM, Flash Cards <***@yahoo.com> wrote:

Still seeing your messages get "unspam-filtered" by that gmail filter
I set up...
Post by Flash Cards
Post by Scott Raney
But bottom line I think this kind of discrepancy doesn't matter at
all: AutoMatch is a very convenient feature, but it's only there as an
This is something new. Until recently you were insisting that other means of
choosing delegates (other than your matching system) would be at
disadvantage.
Perhaps I wasn't clear. Both of the above are true: By "assistant" I
mean that it will compute your vote and vote for you if you don't do
anything. But at it's core this is a direct democracy system: Nobody
really *needs* an AutoMatch system because they can always cast a
direct vote on any issue. In fact, there would have to be an option to
turn off the AutoMatch feature if that's what you really want to do.
Post by Flash Cards
For example, if I were to choose my own delegate based on my
own judgment, you would require that I always vote directly. Essentially,
you wanted to save me from myself (claiming that I will fall asleep),
"Sleeping" isn't the issue. Being manipulated by demagogues is the
biggest potential problem with simple incompetence at picking good
representative for you being the second major problem (the latter
obviously being a serious problem in LQFB).
Post by Flash Cards
just
like representative democracy proponents, or direct democracy purists. Just
like them, you were happily infringing on my right to use my own vote
according to my conscience.
No, you'd *always* be able to cast a direct vote, or not vote at all
if that's what you prefer. But most people *like* having automatic
features (automatic updates of their software, automatic transmissions
and lane-keeping and autobraking in their cars, etc.) and will have no
objection if they're not only automatic, but are also designed to
protect you from doing stupid things.
Regards,
Scott
Post by Flash Cards
Regards,
Sergey
Flash Cards
2016-10-11 02:46:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Raney
In fact, there would have to be an option to
turn off the AutoMatch feature if that's what you really want to do.
I simply want that other people were not setting up artificial obstacles in my decision-making (how I decide my vote).
Post by Scott Raney
Being manipulated by demagogues is the
biggest potential problem with simple incompetence at picking good
representative for you being the second major problem
You really want to save me from myself. I would not mind it, if you were doing it without infringing on my freedom. The moment you choose to limit my options on how I decide my vote, you are infringing on my democratic freedoms. Just like in the current representative democracies.
Post by Scott Raney
No, you'd *always* be able to cast a direct vote, or not vote at all if that's what you prefer.
No, I prefer that you always cast a direct vote, until you understand why this is a problem. But I want to make my voting decisions by any means (technologically) possible. Which, by the way, will not be difficult in principle (i.e. you will never know how I am casting my "direct" votes via Internet), unless you resort to intrusive policing, in the name of democracy, of course.
Post by Scott Raney
But most people *like* having automatic
features (automatic updates of their software, automatic transmissions
and lane-keeping and autobraking in their cars, etc.) and will have no
objection if they're not only automatic, but are also designed to
protect you from doing stupid things.
Most people never heard about possibility of delegation and are quite happy how they are protected from doing stupid things by the current representative democracy. Just like people in China are quite happy how they are protected from doing stupid things. Difference between you and the Chinese leaders, is that of degree.

Regards,Sergey


From: Scott Raney <***@gmail.com>
To: Metagovernment Project <***@metagovernment.org>
Sent: Monday, October 10, 2016 6:59 PM
Subject: Re: [MG] Please take a Big 5 test!

On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 11:09 AM, Flash Cards <***@yahoo.com> wrote:

Still seeing your messages get "unspam-filtered" by that gmail filter
I set up...
Post by Scott Raney
Post by Scott Raney
But bottom line I think this kind of discrepancy doesn't matter at
all: AutoMatch is a very convenient feature, but it's only there as an
This is something new. Until recently you were insisting that other means of
choosing delegates (other than your matching system) would be at
disadvantage.
Perhaps I wasn't clear. Both of the above are true: By "assistant" I
mean that it will compute your vote and vote for you if you don't do
anything. But at it's core this is a direct democracy system: Nobody
really *needs* an AutoMatch system because they can always cast a
direct vote on any issue. In fact, there would have to be an option to
turn off the AutoMatch feature if that's what you really want to do.
Post by Scott Raney
For example, if I were to choose my own delegate based on my
own judgment, you would require that I always vote directly. Essentially,
you wanted to save me from myself (claiming that I will fall asleep),
"Sleeping" isn't the issue. Being manipulated by demagogues is the
biggest potential problem with simple incompetence at picking good
representative for you being the second major problem (the latter
obviously being a serious problem in LQFB).
Post by Scott Raney
just
like representative democracy proponents, or direct democracy purists. Just
like them, you were happily infringing on my right to use my own vote
according to my conscience.
No, you'd *always* be able to cast a direct vote, or not vote at all
if that's what you prefer. But most people *like* having automatic
features (automatic updates of their software, automatic transmissions
and lane-keeping and autobraking in their cars, etc.) and will have no
objection if they're not only automatic, but are also designed to
protect you from doing stupid things.
  Regards,
    Scott
Post by Scott Raney
Regards,
Sergey
Paul Sabin
2016-10-11 13:39:37 UTC
Permalink
Openness=0.925
Conscientiousness=0.722
Extroversion=0.312
Agreeableness=0.722
Neurosis=0.125

1) Do you agree with the assessment?
Mostly. I also feel self-reporting bias plays a significant role.
2) Would you be concerned about having this information become public?
As things stand, no. But if a lot of people believed the personality test
could predict my behaviour in specific situations, that would become a
concern. I might also answer differently if I were concerned about public
judgement.
Post by Flash Cards
Post by Scott Raney
In fact, there would have to be an option to
turn off the AutoMatch feature if that's what you really want to do.
I simply want that other people were not setting up artificial obstacles
in my decision-making (how I decide my vote).
Post by Scott Raney
Being manipulated by demagogues is the
biggest potential problem with simple incompetence at picking good
representative for you being the second major problem
You really want to save me from myself. I would not mind it, if you were
doing it without infringing on my freedom. The moment you choose to limit
my options on how I decide my vote, you are infringing on my democratic
freedoms. Just like in the current representative democracies.
Post by Scott Raney
No, you'd *always* be able to cast a direct vote, or not vote at all if
that's what you prefer.
No, I prefer that you always cast a direct vote, until you understand why
this is a problem. But I want to make my voting decisions by any means
(technologically) possible. Which, by the way, will not be difficult in
principle (i.e. you will never know how I am casting my "direct" votes via
Internet), unless you resort to intrusive policing, in the name of
democracy, of course.
Post by Scott Raney
But most people *like* having automatic
features (automatic updates of their software, automatic transmissions
and lane-keeping and autobraking in their cars, etc.) and will have no
objection if they're not only automatic, but are also designed to
protect you from doing stupid things.
Most people never heard about possibility of delegation and are quite
happy how they are protected from doing stupid things by the current
representative democracy. Just like people in China are quite happy how
they are protected from doing stupid things. Difference between you and the
Chinese leaders, is that of degree.
Regards,
Sergey
------------------------------
*Sent:* Monday, October 10, 2016 6:59 PM
*Subject:* Re: [MG] Please take a Big 5 test!
Still seeing your messages get "unspam-filtered" by that gmail filter
I set up...
Post by Scott Raney
Post by Scott Raney
But bottom line I think this kind of discrepancy doesn't matter at
all: AutoMatch is a very convenient feature, but it's only there as an
This is something new. Until recently you were insisting that other
means of
Post by Scott Raney
choosing delegates (other than your matching system) would be at
disadvantage.
Perhaps I wasn't clear. Both of the above are true: By "assistant" I
mean that it will compute your vote and vote for you if you don't do
anything. But at it's core this is a direct democracy system: Nobody
really *needs* an AutoMatch system because they can always cast a
direct vote on any issue. In fact, there would have to be an option to
turn off the AutoMatch feature if that's what you really want to do.
Post by Scott Raney
For example, if I were to choose my own delegate based on my
own judgment, you would require that I always vote directly. Essentially,
you wanted to save me from myself (claiming that I will fall asleep),
"Sleeping" isn't the issue. Being manipulated by demagogues is the
biggest potential problem with simple incompetence at picking good
representative for you being the second major problem (the latter
obviously being a serious problem in LQFB).
Post by Scott Raney
just
like representative democracy proponents, or direct democracy purists.
Just
Post by Scott Raney
like them, you were happily infringing on my right to use my own vote
according to my conscience.
No, you'd *always* be able to cast a direct vote, or not vote at all
if that's what you prefer. But most people *like* having automatic
features (automatic updates of their software, automatic transmissions
and lane-keeping and autobraking in their cars, etc.) and will have no
objection if they're not only automatic, but are also designed to
protect you from doing stupid things.
Regards,
Scott
Post by Scott Raney
Regards,
Sergey
_______________________________________________
Start : a mailing list of the Metagovernment project
http://www.metagovernment.org/
Manage subscription: http://metagovernment.org/mailman/listinfo/start_
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Scott Raney
2016-10-11 14:35:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Sabin
Openness=0.925
Conscientiousness=0.722
Extroversion=0.312
Agreeableness=0.722
Neurosis=0.125
1) Do you agree with the assessment?
Mostly. I also feel self-reporting bias plays a significant role.
2) Would you be concerned about having this information become public?
As things stand, no. But if a lot of people believed the personality test
could predict my behaviour in specific situations, that would become a
concern. I might also answer differently if I were concerned about public
judgement.
Exactly my concern, and why doing this experiment on this list (filled
as it probably is with moderate to high Openness and low Neurosis
individuals) isn't going to tell us a whole hell of a lot. But still,
thanks for playing along ;-)
Regards,
Scott
Scott Raney
2016-10-11 14:29:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Flash Cards
Post by Scott Raney
In fact, there would have to be an option to
turn off the AutoMatch feature if that's what you really want to do.
I simply want that other people were not setting up artificial obstacles in
my decision-making (how I decide my vote).
Requiring you to open an app and push a *single* button seems to me a
pretty insignificant "obstacle". Granted, LQFB doesn't even require
this, but then again, we've seen how that turns out...
Post by Flash Cards
Post by Scott Raney
No, you'd *always* be able to cast a direct vote, or not vote at all if
that's what you prefer.
No, I prefer that you always cast a direct vote, until you understand why
this is a problem. But I want to make my voting decisions by any means
(technologically) possible. Which, by the way, will not be difficult in
principle (i.e. you will never know how I am casting my "direct" votes via
Internet), unless you resort to intrusive policing, in the name of
democracy, of course.
Back in 1996, just as the first web browsers were becoming available,
I wrote an article related to this:
http://www.metacard.com/wp4.html

The gist of that was that it seemed to me a terrible mistake to allow
information sources to *require* that you use their viewer to get
access to their data. Twenty years later we're finally getting some
standards (like JSON) and tools that allow the kind of thing I was
talking about.

I therefore propose that *eventually* we could standardize and publish
the API such that you'd be able to use whatever front-end you want to
interact with the voting system, including one that auto-voted based
on whatever criteria you want (even, I suppose, turning your vote over
to Donald Trump or some other authoritarian demagogue). How quickly
this happens depends on how many others share your concerns. My
prediction would be that it's going to be below the critical mass
necessary to even get a tool like that built, because that number will
be drastically reduced because once people grok how AutoMatch works
(and I'm not sure you even do yet), they'll agree that it's the better
way. But at least at first, although the API will essentially be
public (open source), there can't be any promises that it won't change
because that might cripple future development of a system that we
really only vaguely understand the requirements for at this point.
Post by Flash Cards
Most people never heard about possibility of delegation and are quite happy
how they are protected from doing stupid things by the current
representative democracy. Just like people in China are quite happy how they
are protected from doing stupid things. Difference between you and the
Chinese leaders, is that of degree.
This is known as the "slippery slope" fallacy. A matter of degree is
*all* the difference unless you're a religious fanatic.
Regards,
Scott
Post by Flash Cards
Regards,
Sergey
Flash Cards
2016-10-15 00:48:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Raney
Requiring you to open an app and push a *single* button seems to me a
pretty insignificant "obstacle".
Of course it is a significant obstacle. This is how PlaceAVote went out of business. They were thinking just like you, like any other (pure) DD proponent: it is just one click or just a single button.
Post by Scott Raney
Post by Flash Cards
representative democracy. Just like people in China are quite happy how they
are protected from doing stupid things. Difference between you and the
Chinese leaders, is that of degree.>
This is known as the "slippery slope" fallacy. A matter of degree is
*all* the difference unless you're a religious fanatic.
Slippery slope fallacy was your invoking of "first they came after communists ..." argument to reject using Reddit on the grounds of (pretty much) nonexistent censorship. I am advocating for a transparent and elegant design based on universally accepted ideals (such as "all men are (created) equal"). Unlike you, I am leaving all options available to people, like if they want to try some ad-hoc untested technology like matchism. You, on the other hand, are revealing yourself as a real authoritarian, by declaring it an axiom(!) that people cannot choose their delegates.


Regards

From: Scott Raney <***@gmail.com>
To: Flash Cards <***@yahoo.com>; Metagovernment Project <***@metagovernment.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2016 7:29 AM
Subject: Re: [MG] Please take a Big 5 test!
Post by Scott Raney
Post by Flash Cards
In fact, there would have to be an option to
turn off the AutoMatch feature if that's what you really want to do.
I simply want that other people were not setting up artificial obstacles in
my decision-making (how I decide my vote).
Requiring you to open an app and push a *single* button seems to me a
pretty insignificant "obstacle". Granted, LQFB doesn't even require
this, but then again, we've seen how that turns out...
Post by Scott Raney
Post by Flash Cards
No, you'd *always* be able to cast a direct vote, or not vote at all if
that's what you prefer.
No, I prefer that you always cast a direct vote, until you understand why
this is a problem. But I want to make my voting decisions by any means
(technologically) possible. Which, by the way, will not be difficult in
principle (i.e. you will never know how I am casting my "direct" votes via
Internet), unless you resort to intrusive policing, in the name of
democracy, of course.
Back in 1996, just as the first web browsers were becoming available,
I wrote an article related to this:
http://www.metacard.com/wp4.html

The gist of that was that it seemed to me a terrible mistake to allow
information sources to *require* that you use their viewer to get
access to their data. Twenty years later we're finally getting some
standards (like JSON) and tools that allow the kind of thing I was
talking about.

I therefore propose that *eventually* we could standardize and publish
the API such that you'd be able to use whatever front-end you want to
interact with the voting system, including one that auto-voted based
on whatever criteria you want (even, I suppose, turning your vote over
to Donald Trump or some other authoritarian demagogue). How quickly
this happens depends on how many others share your concerns. My
prediction would be that it's going to be below the critical mass
necessary to even get a tool like that built, because that number will
be drastically reduced because once people grok how AutoMatch works
(and I'm not sure you even do yet), they'll agree that it's the better
way. But at least at first, although the API will essentially be
public (open source), there can't be any promises that it won't change
because that might cripple future development of a system that we
really only vaguely understand the requirements for at this point.
Post by Scott Raney
Most people never heard about possibility of delegation and are quite happy
how they are protected from doing stupid things by the current
representative democracy. Just like people in China are quite happy how they
are protected from doing stupid things. Difference between you and the
Chinese leaders, is that of degree.
This is known as the "slippery slope" fallacy. A matter of degree is
*all* the difference unless you're a religious fanatic.
  Regards,
    Scott
Post by Scott Raney
Regards,
Sergey
Scott Raney
2016-10-15 15:19:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Flash Cards
Post by Scott Raney
Requiring you to open an app and push a *single* button seems to me a
pretty insignificant "obstacle".
Of course it is a significant obstacle. This is how PlaceAVote went out of
business. They were thinking just like you, like any other (pure) DD
proponent: it is just one click or just a single button.
Again, it only requires clicking that button if you want do the
equivalent of turning off stability control, which anyone who knows
anything about cars can tell you is a stupid thing to do. I await the
day when people will realize that choosing your own delegates is
equally stupid because that's exactly what the science tells us (the
election of Hitler as dictator with an 88% supermajority and the
forty-plus percent of Americans who are planning to try to elect a
narcissistic psychopath as president are about as convincing to me as
my experiences dropping things and having them fall down instead of
up).
Post by Flash Cards
Post by Scott Raney
Post by Flash Cards
representative democracy. Just like people in China are quite happy how they
are protected from doing stupid things. Difference between you and the
Chinese leaders, is that of degree.
This is known as the "slippery slope" fallacy. A matter of degree is
*all* the difference unless you're a religious fanatic.
Slippery slope fallacy was your invoking of "first they came after
communists ..." argument to reject using Reddit on the grounds of (pretty
much) nonexistent censorship.
BS: I looked at it carefully and found that hundreds or even thousands
of posts had been deleted in many of the subdivisions. This is not
"nonexistent", in fact it's an every-day occurrence. And that has
nothing to do with the slippery slope fallacy: It's just a design flaw
in the design of the Reddit forum system.
Post by Flash Cards
I am advocating for a transparent and elegant
design based on universally accepted ideals (such as "all men are (created)
equal").
And I agree, although I'd add "All men are equally incompetent at
choosing delegates who will properly represent them". If you've got
evidence to the contrary, bring it on. Otherwise, I'll have to rely on
mine which clearly shows that people are *not* qualified to do this,
and in fact are probably even less qualified to do this than they are
at casting direct votes in most cases.
Post by Flash Cards
Unlike you, I am leaving all options available to people, like if
they want to try some ad-hoc untested technology like matchism. You, on the
other hand, are revealing yourself as a real authoritarian, by declaring it
an axiom(!) that people cannot choose their delegates.
I can understand your confusion, although I would guess you'd make the
same accusation against the Ford engineers who neglected to provide
this option in my wife's car (a C-Max). My pickup does have the
dashboard button for this, but not being stupid, I've never turned it
off, even when we go 4-wheeling or drive on the beach or in snow or
wherever.

But I'd recommend you reevaluate your claim: Doing something because
there is sufficient scientific evidence to make an unambiguous social
engineering design decision is different than just being an
authoritarian and enforcing some rule that I just pulled out of my
ass. Or if it came from the programming provided by my genes, which is
my guess as to where your insistence on "freedom" in this matter is
coming from. If you think people (including yourself) are actually
rational, I invite you to refute the hundreds of examples listed on:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases
Regards,
Scott
Scott Raney
2016-10-09 23:35:40 UTC
Permalink
Work for me too.
Post by Flash Cards
http://www.outofservice.com/bigfive/results/?oR=0.775&cR=0.778&eR=0.469&aR=0.639&nR=0.25&o2=12&c2=64&e2=79&a2=1&n2=18&y=1940&g=m
http://www.outofservice.com/bigfive/results/?oR=0.875&cR=0.833&eR=0.562&aR=0.25&nR=0.281&o2=12&c2=64&e2=79&a2=1&n2=18&y=1940&g=m
This is the interesting one: You were actually pretty accurate for
most elements, but got the Openness rating exactly backwards. This
despite the fact that, a priori, I'd expect *everyone* on this list to
have above-50% scores on that (else why else would they be exploring
new systems for government?)

Generally there is a high level of self/other correlation on these
measures, but most of the research on this that I know of is for
people who actually have spent significant amounts of time together
(close friends, family members, coworkers, etc.) I've not specifically
looked for experiments like this done e.g., with FaceBook friends, but
will the next time I'm in the SSCI.
Regards,
Scott
Post by Flash Cards
http://www.outofservice.com/bigfive/results/?oR=0.775&cR=0.778&eR=0.469&aR=0.639&nR=0.25&o2=83&c2=89&e2=48&a2=1&n2=11&y=1940&g=m
http://www.outofservice.com/bigfive/results/?oR=0.825&cR=0.556&eR=0.344&aR=0.667&nR=0.625&o2=83&c2=89&e2=48&a2=1&n2=11&y=1940&g=m
http://www.outofservice.com/bigfive/results/?oR=0.825&cR=0.556&eR=0.344&aR=0.667&nR=0.625&o2=65&c2=83&e2=31&a2=44&n2=9&y=1940&g=m
Hope this helps you: ?oR=0.825&cR=0.556&eR=0.344&aR=0.667&nR=0.625
1) To answer agree/disagree question I would need to know where other people
I know are relative to me on this test. These numbers do feel like a
straightforward conversion of my answers, though. I also think there is a
large self-reporting bias in this assessment.
2) I am not concerned. And I doubt these numbers reveal my political views.
How about matching those numbers to preferences on specific issues?
Regards
________________________________
Sent: Sunday, October 9, 2016 9:02 AM
Subject: [MG] Please take a Big 5 test!
After reading Patrick's message it occurs to me that people may not
really grok what's involved in my proposal, so I invite you to take a
Big 5 inventory to see what it'll actually be like. There are several
of these on the Internet, but they're all basically the same (e.g., my
results are very consistent between them). They all claim to take
about 10 minutes, but if you're any good at taking tests it really
http://www.outofservice.com/bigfive/
?oR=0.875&cR=0.833&eR=0.562&aR=0.25&nR=0.281
Openness: 0.875
Conscientiousness: 0.833
Extroversion: 0.562
Agreeableness: 0.25
Neurosis:0.281
1) Do you agree with the assessment?
2) Would you be concerned about having this information become public?
As for me, I don't worry about #2 because I know that anyone with even
a little bit of skill in this field could make a very accurate
prediction of these values just from reading my posts to this list.
But not everyone posts (anywhere) and those are exactly the people
(probably low Extraversion and/or high Neuroticism) who are most
poorly represented in our current government systems. One of the
"known unknowns" is how people will react to being asked to do this,
and how extensive the marketing effort that would be required to
convince them that it's really OK (again, it's not anything that
people who have spent more than 5 minutes with you in person don't
already know. Certainly it's far less personally revealing than
posting a picture of yourself on Facebook).
We could potentially save participants some time by cutting out the
questions for 2 of the 5 dimensions (Extroversion and Agreeableness)
which only have a low correlation with ideology, though I'm not as
sure that it won't matter in my direct-voting proposal, which will
almost certainly pick up on things that ideology/party affiliation
measures are simply missing.
There's also a "short form" that sacrifices a little bit of accuracy
to save about half the time (they claim 5 minutes), but again, I'm
inclined to use the standard version to improve accuracy and also
collect the full set of data to make this research publishable
http://gosling.psy.utexas.edu/scales-weve-developed/ten-item-personality-measure-tipi/
For further exploration on the subject I recommend
http://www.truity.com/. They also have a Briggs-Meyers test, an older
but more comprehensive inventory/theory. Also see the "Personality
Types" tab and see if you think you can make voting predictions based
on the 16 types. Unfortunately for all the stuff on that site, there
is very little about how personality and politics interact, something
I find generally true of the research in this field. They probably
rightfully reject the idea that choice of politician in a conventional
voting system tells you much about people, but seem to never consider
how personality will make a very big difference in a true direct
democracy.
Note that none of this precludes using different personality
inventories instead of/in addition to big 5. In fact in the long run
I'm sure we'll need to develop a custom inventory that's specifically
designed to facilitate matching on public policy issues. But that's a
big project and would require massive amounts of data to achieve
anywhere near what I believe we can achieve immediately with the
incredibly well-validated big 5 inventory.
Regards,
Scott
_______________________________________________
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http://metagovernment.org/mailman/listinfo/start_metagovernment.org
_______________________________________________
Start : a mailing list of the Metagovernment project
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http://metagovernment.org/mailman/listinfo/start_metagovernment.org
Scott Raney
2016-11-13 15:41:53 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, Oct 9, 2016 at 11:36 AM, Flash Cards <***@yahoo.com> wrote:

Apologies for the delay in responding: it ended up in my spam folder
and got buried when I moved it out...
Post by Flash Cards
Hope this helps you: ?oR=0.825&cR=0.556&eR=0.344&aR=0.667&nR=0.625
An interesting combination, but it does have that same HO+HC pairing
that others on this list have, and which is apparently not well
matched by any political party.
Post by Flash Cards
1) To answer agree/disagree question I would need to know where other people
I know are relative to me on this test. These numbers do feel like a
straightforward conversion of my answers, though. I also think there is a
large self-reporting bias in this assessment.
I'm still leaning toward doing the matches on the raw scores rather
than after they've been processed into a FFI (Five Factor Inventory).
It's more computation, but might capture more of the available
information. Since we're not planning to report FFI to anyone, bias
isn't actually a problem, especially if it's correlated with one or
more of the other dimensions. For example if high neurosis individuals
have a bias away from the scale extremes it will *still* be possible
to to match them to the appropriate other high-neurosis individuals
because a least squares match will automatically become more sensitive
to that reduced range.
Post by Flash Cards
2) I am not concerned. And I doubt these numbers reveal my political views.
Actually I don't care about your "political views". The goal is to
match your voting record, not your ideology or political party
affiliation or whatever. As soon as people start thinking "Hmm, I'm a
libertarian, how would a libertarian vote on this tax issue?" it's
game over in terms of expecting a rational or even representative
vote. Maintaining your group membership actually requires compromising
on your preferences and so I consider this a design flaw in our
current systems. There were no political parties in the EEA and, like
other types of organizations (corporations, police, the military,
organized religions, and indeed hierarchical government itself) they
are things that we clearly lack the built-in internal programming to
properly regulate. Which is why we need to use technology to boost our
very limited natural abilities.

And despite your doubts there is very clear evidence that your FFI
scores *are* predictive of your ideology. I'm not sure whether to use
the delusion that they don't as a marketing tool, but in general am
inclined to try to educate rather than manipulate (this may be a HO+HC
inclination, but there it is).
Post by Flash Cards
How about matching those numbers to preferences on specific issues?
More importantly, can you use them to predict voting on specific
*proposals* regarding specific issues. For example it may be that high
conscientious individuals will vote against a proposal with an obvious
flaw in it even if they agree with it in general. *That's* the kind of
subtlety that I'm hoping AutoMatch will capture. Using a Big 5
inventory is just a rough first attempt at assessing this. My
prediction is that it will be pretty close. Far closer than going
through an intermediate step like party affiliation anyway. But we
will of course refine the inventory once we get enough data on actual
voting records.
Regards,
Scott

Flash Cards
2016-10-09 17:51:42 UTC
Permalink
Hey Scott, could you at least tell me if I am neurotypical, RWA, SDO or SDAP? :)

Regards


From: Scott Raney <***@gmail.com>
To: Metagovernment Project <***@metagovernment.org>
Sent: Sunday, October 9, 2016 9:02 AM
Subject: [MG] Please take a Big 5 test!

After reading Patrick's message it occurs to me that people may not
really grok what's involved in my proposal, so I invite you to take a
Big 5 inventory to see what it'll actually be like. There are several
of these on the Internet, but they're all basically the same (e.g., my
results are very consistent between them). They all claim to take
about 10 minutes, but if you're any good at taking tests it really
only takes about half that. I recommend:

http://www.outofservice.com/bigfive/

At the end of that you get the raw numbers in the URL line. Mine says:
?oR=0.875&cR=0.833&eR=0.562&aR=0.25&nR=0.281

This in the "OCEAN" order:
Openness: 0.875
Conscientiousness: 0.833
Extroversion: 0.562
Agreeableness: 0.25
Neurosis:0.281

Please show us yours, then tell us:
1) Do you agree with the assessment?
2) Would you be concerned about having this information become public?

As for me, I don't worry about #2 because I know that anyone with even
a little bit of skill in this field could make a very accurate
prediction of these values just from reading my posts to this list.
But not everyone posts (anywhere) and those are exactly the people
(probably low Extraversion and/or high Neuroticism) who are most
poorly represented in our current government systems. One of the
"known unknowns" is how people will react to being asked to do this,
and how extensive the marketing effort that would be required to
convince them that it's really OK (again, it's not anything that
people who have spent more than 5 minutes with you in person don't
already know. Certainly it's far less personally revealing than
posting a picture of yourself on Facebook).

We could potentially save participants some time by cutting out the
questions for 2 of the 5 dimensions (Extroversion and Agreeableness)
which only have a low correlation with ideology, though I'm not as
sure that it won't matter in my direct-voting proposal, which will
almost certainly pick up on things that ideology/party affiliation
measures are simply missing.

There's also a "short form" that sacrifices a little bit of accuracy
to save about half the time (they claim 5 minutes), but again, I'm
inclined to use the standard version to improve accuracy and also
collect the full set of data to make this research publishable
eventually:

http://gosling.psy.utexas.edu/scales-weve-developed/ten-item-personality-measure-tipi/

For further exploration on the subject I recommend
http://www.truity.com/. They also have a Briggs-Meyers test, an older
but more comprehensive inventory/theory. Also see the "Personality
Types"  tab and see if you think you can make voting predictions based
on the 16 types. Unfortunately for all the stuff on that site, there
is very little about how personality and politics interact, something
I find generally true of the research in this field. They probably
rightfully reject the idea that choice of politician in a conventional
voting system tells you much about people, but seem to never consider
how personality will make a very big difference in a true direct
democracy.

Note that none of this precludes using different personality
inventories instead of/in addition to big 5. In fact in the long run
I'm sure we'll need to develop a custom inventory that's specifically
designed to facilitate matching on public policy issues. But that's a
big project and would require massive amounts of data to achieve
anywhere near what I believe we can achieve immediately with the
incredibly well-validated big 5 inventory.
  Regards,
    Scott
Scott Raney
2016-10-09 23:58:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Flash Cards
Hey Scott, could you at least tell me if I am neurotypical, RWA, SDO or SDAP? :)
They're not highly correlated with Big 5 and so it's hard to make a
very accurate prediction except that your high Openness score pretty
much rules out high RWA (which does correlate somewhat with low
Openness and moderate to high Conscientiousness).

But this brings up an interesting point which is that after people
have cast 10 (or whatever) direct votes we ought to ask them to fill
out RWA and SDO and PCR-L inventories (albeit PCL-R being somewhat
suspect IMHO because one thing psychopaths do exceptionally well is
lie on tests ;-) Personality researchers would be thrilled I think to
have that kind of data to work with, and I'm sure it'd be useful to
have when the time comes to build a customized public-policy-specific
inventory.
Regards,
Scott
Post by Flash Cards
Regards
Patrick Millerd
2016-10-10 20:39:55 UTC
Permalink
<a href="
http://www.outofservice.com/bigfive/results/?oR=0.7&amp;cR=0.639&amp;eR=0.562&amp;aR=0.778&amp;nR=0.281">I'm
a O47-C58-E48-A74-N11 Big Five!!</a>

My results, the only category I was surprised about was Openness.
Generally, think of myself as higher than that.

It's an interesting way to determine voting preference, and no doubt some
fine tuning could occur based on actual voting preference when results
started coming in.

We need to be careful how these results get displayed I think. Give the
public too much information on the system and the quicker it can be worked
out how to game it. e.g.There will inevitably be a personality type that
truly doesn't care and will never correct whatever they end up voting for,
this would be the type to fake and have the most influence with.

However, give the public too little information on the system and trust/
confidence becomes an issue. I think the best balance is to make
information accessible but a process to get to, so much that it puts up red
flags if you dive too deeply and you might get investigated on your
motives.

I'm also wondering if users are allowed to abstain from a vote? Some people
might not want to be represented in a particular proposal because they are
too conflicted.
Post by Scott Raney
Post by Flash Cards
Hey Scott, could you at least tell me if I am neurotypical, RWA, SDO or SDAP? :)
They're not highly correlated with Big 5 and so it's hard to make a
very accurate prediction except that your high Openness score pretty
much rules out high RWA (which does correlate somewhat with low
Openness and moderate to high Conscientiousness).
But this brings up an interesting point which is that after people
have cast 10 (or whatever) direct votes we ought to ask them to fill
out RWA and SDO and PCR-L inventories (albeit PCL-R being somewhat
suspect IMHO because one thing psychopaths do exceptionally well is
lie on tests ;-) Personality researchers would be thrilled I think to
have that kind of data to work with, and I'm sure it'd be useful to
have when the time comes to build a customized public-policy-specific
inventory.
Regards,
Scott
Post by Flash Cards
Regards
_______________________________________________
Start : a mailing list of the Metagovernment project
http://www.metagovernment.org/
Manage subscription: http://metagovernment.org/mailman/listinfo/start_
metagovernment.org
Scott Raney
2016-10-11 01:40:48 UTC
Permalink
<a
href="http://www.outofservice.com/bigfive/results/?oR=0.7&amp;cR=0.639&amp;eR=0.562&amp;aR=0.778&amp;nR=0.281">I'm
a O47-C58-E48-A74-N11 Big Five!!</a>
My results, the only category I was surprised about was Openness. Generally,
think of myself as higher than that.
Looks pretty moderate overall, which is actually one of the most
common profiles. You're obviously also very poorly represented by
politicians in misrepresentative democracies.
It's an interesting way to determine voting preference, and no doubt some
fine tuning could occur based on actual voting preference when results
started coming in.
Exactly. Standard Big 5 is just a starting point: There are lots of
ways to optimize, including picking questions from other inventories
and dropping questions that don't correlate with voting preference.
We need to be careful how these results get displayed I think. Give the
public too much information on the system and the quicker it can be worked
out how to game it. e.g.There will inevitably be a personality type that
truly doesn't care and will never correct whatever they end up voting for,
this would be the type to fake and have the most influence with.
I'm sure people will try to do exactly this. Since the data will all
be public it will be pretty easy to figure out where the low hanging
fruit is and do the AutoMatch equivalent of gerrymandering: Finding
the most vulnerable populations and then trying to exploit them by
casting just enough phony votes to flip the total vote if most of them
allow the match vote to go through. But as I said before, because the
data is public it will also be very easy to *detect* this kind of
tampering and then take action against the perpetrators (sanctions,
dropping dox, etc.) There also lots of things we can include in the
system design to discourage this kind of thing (requiring independent
confirmation of personality type, preventing people from redoing their
profile more than once or twice a year, including a "block" or
negative link feature so that people can exclude the suspect vote from
the AutoMatch process, etc.)
However, give the public too little information on the system and trust/
confidence becomes an issue. I think the best balance is to make information
accessible but a process to get to, so much that it puts up red flags if you
dive too deeply and you might get investigated on your motives.
That's generally known as "security through obscurity" and trying to
do it this will get you a lot of grief from the "real" security
aficionados. But, yeah, tracking who accesses the raw data *is* a
reasonable thing to do because that information could be very useful
if an actual plot is discovered.
I'm also wondering if users are allowed to abstain from a vote? Some people
might not want to be represented in a particular proposal because they are
too conflicted.
Definitely, but it would require casting a direct vote. You can vote
"yes", "no", or "abstain". Or you can do nothing in which case the
AutoMatch vote will be recorded for you. Which I guess itself might be
"abstain" if the majority of your AutoMatched proxies voted that way.
Regards,
Scott
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