Discussion:
[MG] Global Challenge Results
Patrick Millerd
2018-03-17 17:45:40 UTC
Permalink
This competition has moved on to the semi-finals. Not sure how many of us
entered but my entry was not selected. I'm interested in reading some of
the ones that were selected. Apparently, they will be posted at some point.
Someone from a facebook group I was in was selected, here is his entry
https://magwas.gitbooks.io/enumerati/content/en/

Haven't fully examined it yet but figured might be something worth
discussing.

Cheers Y'all
Scott Raney
2018-03-18 00:19:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Patrick Millerd
This competition has moved on to the semi-finals. Not sure how many of us
entered but my entry was not selected.
Mine either...
Post by Patrick Millerd
I'm interested in reading some of the ones that were selected.
Me too although I expect that I'm going to find them very
disappointing based on who the judges are: Given that they're all
"work within the system" types their preferences are going to be far
too conservative and none of them are likely to have a
social-engineering perspective on things.
Post by Patrick Millerd
Apparently, they will be posted at some point.
Someone from a facebook group I was in was selected, here is his entry
https://magwas.gitbooks.io/enumerati/content/en/
It's well done (albeit with too many typos and awkward phrasings, but
neither I nor the judges would be likely to hold that against them),
and I really like the way they've used the Gitbooks platform.
Post by Patrick Millerd
Haven't fully examined it yet but figured might be something worth
discussing.
Agreed. Here's my take on it:

1) The deal breaker: Voluntary delegation with no assist in even
identifying appropriate proxies. We've already seen how that doesn't
work (both in the LQFB system and in the Google liquid voting system).

2) No correction for SDAPs and their much higher interest in being
"representatives" (i.e., the people who will end up running things are
the same people we have now).

3) I don't think I follow the required 1% "membership" fee. 1% of
average income should be more than enough to run the government itself
but does that mean that to join the "parks" group I've got to pony up
$300 (1% of the average income in the US)? If I don't come up with the
$300 I don't get to vote on anything?

4) The voting system is underspecified. Voting seems to be open (no
secret ballot), but there is no mention of this or who and how they do
the counts or the authentication.

All in all it seems to me to be no improvement over what we have now
other than sort of implying that the international level is a
representative democracy that works the same as all lower levels.

Oh well, at least it's not based on blockchain ;-)
Regards,
Scott
Post by Patrick Millerd
Cheers Y'all
_______________________________________________
Start : a mailing list of the Metagovernment project
http://www.metagovernment.org/
http://metagovernment.org/mailman/listinfo/start_metagovernment.org
Jacopo Tolja
2018-03-18 08:47:49 UTC
Permalink
I submit a mix of platform, and pass the semifinal but I still have very
large doubt it can go further up.
I even mention in my proposal proxyforme!
Attached for your review.
I spotted few error, please be considerate i learn English on my own.
Kind Regards to you all

Jacopo
Post by Scott Raney
Post by Patrick Millerd
This competition has moved on to the semi-finals. Not sure how many of us
entered but my entry was not selected.
Mine either...
Post by Patrick Millerd
I'm interested in reading some of the ones that were selected.
Me too although I expect that I'm going to find them very
disappointing based on who the judges are: Given that they're all
"work within the system" types their preferences are going to be far
too conservative and none of them are likely to have a
social-engineering perspective on things.
Post by Patrick Millerd
Apparently, they will be posted at some point.
Someone from a facebook group I was in was selected, here is his entry
https://magwas.gitbooks.io/enumerati/content/en/
It's well done (albeit with too many typos and awkward phrasings, but
neither I nor the judges would be likely to hold that against them),
and I really like the way they've used the Gitbooks platform.
Post by Patrick Millerd
Haven't fully examined it yet but figured might be something worth
discussing.
1) The deal breaker: Voluntary delegation with no assist in even
identifying appropriate proxies. We've already seen how that doesn't
work (both in the LQFB system and in the Google liquid voting system).
2) No correction for SDAPs and their much higher interest in being
"representatives" (i.e., the people who will end up running things are
the same people we have now).
3) I don't think I follow the required 1% "membership" fee. 1% of
average income should be more than enough to run the government itself
but does that mean that to join the "parks" group I've got to pony up
$300 (1% of the average income in the US)? If I don't come up with the
$300 I don't get to vote on anything?
4) The voting system is underspecified. Voting seems to be open (no
secret ballot), but there is no mention of this or who and how they do
the counts or the authentication.
All in all it seems to me to be no improvement over what we have now
other than sort of implying that the international level is a
representative democracy that works the same as all lower levels.
Oh well, at least it's not based on blockchain ;-)
Regards,
Scott
Post by Patrick Millerd
Cheers Y'all
_______________________________________________
Start : a mailing list of the Metagovernment project
http://www.metagovernment.org/
http://metagovernment.org/mailman/listinfo/start_metagovernment.org
_______________________________________________
Start : a mailing list of the Metagovernment project
http://www.metagovernment.org/
Manage subscription: http://metagovernment.org/mailman/listinfo/start_
metagovernment.org
Anthony Dunn
2018-03-18 16:26:18 UTC
Permalink
"although I expect that I'm going to find them very
disappointing based on who the judges are: Given that they're all
"work within the system" types "


I took the time to actually read what László Szombatfalvy had to say in his
first book and I think he'd be very dissapointed to know the actual judges
mostly all had such limited views on what he'd called "NEW shapes contest".

Rather than just whining about it, I want to gather participants who's
entries were disqualified for the wrong reasons, and write a group message
to Mr. Szombatfalvy

If you're interested in that shoot me an email directly
Post by Jacopo Tolja
I submit a mix of platform, and pass the semifinal but I still have very
large doubt it can go further up.
I even mention in my proposal proxyforme!
Attached for your review.
I spotted few error, please be considerate i learn English on my own.
Kind Regards to you all
Jacopo
Post by Scott Raney
Post by Patrick Millerd
This competition has moved on to the semi-finals. Not sure how many of
us
Post by Patrick Millerd
entered but my entry was not selected.
Mine either...
Post by Patrick Millerd
I'm interested in reading some of the ones that were selected.
Me too although I expect that I'm going to find them very
disappointing based on who the judges are: Given that they're all
"work within the system" types their preferences are going to be far
too conservative and none of them are likely to have a
social-engineering perspective on things.
Post by Patrick Millerd
Apparently, they will be posted at some point.
Someone from a facebook group I was in was selected, here is his entry
https://magwas.gitbooks.io/enumerati/content/en/
It's well done (albeit with too many typos and awkward phrasings, but
neither I nor the judges would be likely to hold that against them),
and I really like the way they've used the Gitbooks platform.
Post by Patrick Millerd
Haven't fully examined it yet but figured might be something worth
discussing.
1) The deal breaker: Voluntary delegation with no assist in even
identifying appropriate proxies. We've already seen how that doesn't
work (both in the LQFB system and in the Google liquid voting system).
2) No correction for SDAPs and their much higher interest in being
"representatives" (i.e., the people who will end up running things are
the same people we have now).
3) I don't think I follow the required 1% "membership" fee. 1% of
average income should be more than enough to run the government itself
but does that mean that to join the "parks" group I've got to pony up
$300 (1% of the average income in the US)? If I don't come up with the
$300 I don't get to vote on anything?
4) The voting system is underspecified. Voting seems to be open (no
secret ballot), but there is no mention of this or who and how they do
the counts or the authentication.
All in all it seems to me to be no improvement over what we have now
other than sort of implying that the international level is a
representative democracy that works the same as all lower levels.
Oh well, at least it's not based on blockchain ;-)
Regards,
Scott
Post by Patrick Millerd
Cheers Y'all
_______________________________________________
Start : a mailing list of the Metagovernment project
http://www.metagovernment.org/
http://metagovernment.org/mailman/listinfo/start_metagovernment.org
_______________________________________________
Start : a mailing list of the Metagovernment project
http://www.metagovernment.org/
Manage subscription: http://metagovernment.org/mail
man/listinfo/start_metagovernment.org
_______________________________________________
Start : a mailing list of the Metagovernment project
http://www.metagovernment.org/
Manage subscription: http://metagovernment.org/mailman/listinfo/start_
metagovernment.org
Scott Raney
2018-03-18 16:59:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jacopo Tolja
I submit a mix of platform, and pass the semifinal but I still have very
large doubt it can go further up.
I even mention in my proposal proxyforme!
As well as claiming to be able to integrate several other projects.
Pretty ambitious ;-)

But I'm kind of surprised they didn't just disqualify you for
providing identifying information: I had to work pretty hard to scrub
my entry of this kind of thing (e.g., not being able to cite the
Matchism Manifesto or link to the papers on that site was a major
hurdle). The "enumerati" entry cited several on-line sources which is
something I scrupulously avoid doing (they're not refereed journals,
many of them have advertising that could be problematic, and sites
like those disappear or get reorganized frequently which leads to
broken links).
Post by Jacopo Tolja
Attached for your review.
I spotted few error, please be considerate i learn English on my own.
It's no problem: The meaning is clear and I'd guess that the GCF saw a
lot entries with less than perfect English and so has had to make
accommodation for that (indeed most of the judges seem to be
non-native English speakers and so in many cases probably didn't even
notice the awkward patterns in these entries). Keep in mind that I'm
always happy to take a look at things like this and provide feedback
and/or editing.

My take on yours:
1) I go back and forth on using FB, G+, etc. credentials for login. It
does speed the early adoption process, but IMHO also taints even your
early results because everyone knows people with multiple accounts,
fake names, etc. and they should not be reminded of this *every time*
they use the system. It's also going to be a nightmare to add
independent authentication later (someone will have to manually go in
and approve each transition to an internal authentication system). I'm
still of the opinion that the way proxyfor.me works is the best: A
pseudonym is used, but it exists independently of the name used
elsewhere. Not only does this make adding true authentication later on
straightforward, it also affords people the option of true anonymity
if they decide to enforce this (by not sharing their screen name
outside the platform). In fact I'm working on an automatic generation
system for the names to even more firmly push for keeping your
proxyfor.me name separate from the names you use on social media
platforms.

2) Ooops, you used the blockchain buzzword ;-)

3) It doesn't seem to meet the "guaranteed decision" criteria. Both
proxyfor.me (which I called MPADD (Matched Proxy Augmented Direct
Democracy) in my entry) and the enumerati entry do meet this
requirement.

4) I don't see the path from local to global adoption and effect, and
you even explicitly state that your system cannot overcome
obstructionism from existing government officials. But wasn't this
path the *core* of what the competition was about?
Regards,
Scott
Post by Jacopo Tolja
Kind Regards to you all
Jacopo
Post by Scott Raney
Post by Patrick Millerd
This competition has moved on to the semi-finals. Not sure how many of us
entered but my entry was not selected.
Mine either...
Post by Patrick Millerd
I'm interested in reading some of the ones that were selected.
Me too although I expect that I'm going to find them very
disappointing based on who the judges are: Given that they're all
"work within the system" types their preferences are going to be far
too conservative and none of them are likely to have a
social-engineering perspective on things.
Post by Patrick Millerd
Apparently, they will be posted at some point.
Someone from a facebook group I was in was selected, here is his entry
https://magwas.gitbooks.io/enumerati/content/en/
It's well done (albeit with too many typos and awkward phrasings, but
neither I nor the judges would be likely to hold that against them),
and I really like the way they've used the Gitbooks platform.
Post by Patrick Millerd
Haven't fully examined it yet but figured might be something worth
discussing.
1) The deal breaker: Voluntary delegation with no assist in even
identifying appropriate proxies. We've already seen how that doesn't
work (both in the LQFB system and in the Google liquid voting system).
2) No correction for SDAPs and their much higher interest in being
"representatives" (i.e., the people who will end up running things are
the same people we have now).
3) I don't think I follow the required 1% "membership" fee. 1% of
average income should be more than enough to run the government itself
but does that mean that to join the "parks" group I've got to pony up
$300 (1% of the average income in the US)? If I don't come up with the
$300 I don't get to vote on anything?
4) The voting system is underspecified. Voting seems to be open (no
secret ballot), but there is no mention of this or who and how they do
the counts or the authentication.
All in all it seems to me to be no improvement over what we have now
other than sort of implying that the international level is a
representative democracy that works the same as all lower levels.
Oh well, at least it's not based on blockchain ;-)
Regards,
Scott
Post by Patrick Millerd
Cheers Y'all
_______________________________________________
Start : a mailing list of the Metagovernment project
http://www.metagovernment.org/
http://metagovernment.org/mailman/listinfo/start_metagovernment.org
_______________________________________________
Start : a mailing list of the Metagovernment project
http://www.metagovernment.org/
http://metagovernment.org/mailman/listinfo/start_metagovernment.org
_______________________________________________
Start : a mailing list of the Metagovernment project
http://www.metagovernment.org/
http://metagovernment.org/mailman/listinfo/start_metagovernment.org
Steve Coffman
2018-03-18 20:37:05 UTC
Permalink
The Global Challenges Foundation Newsletter states it "will make available a database of the top submissions for...the public to read, examine and improve.”

I’m anxious to review and evaluate the entries that are made available to see if they can be morphed, combined, or synthesized into some synergistic, single platform or system. (Unless of course by some stroke of genius one of them stands alone as being up to the task.) Beyond critiquing the *individual* submissions, perhaps it will be possible to cobble together bits and pieces of various entries into a single (more) comprehensive or workable design.
Jacopo Tolja
2018-03-18 21:23:28 UTC
Permalink
I believe that putting together the best ideas is the key, decisions must
be addressed with specific criteria depending on the subject matter.
lets say we need to generate a very articulate proposal, then I will
consider a platform based on Airesis. But the shortcoming in Airesis is
that it give to much power to the redactor, by using vilfredo I can have
redactors that need to go through a consensus process for the paragraph
that need to be integrated in the proposal, once the proposal is completed
with different solution and must go to the vote, people can choose to cast
their vote or having a proxyforme AI type of engine do it.
If the decision is an amount (example, a compensation for x service) a
median like algorithm engine can be used.
I envision also a multilanguage real time translating service when the
decision is between two or more states.
Responding to some of Scott's remarks, I believe that even if participants
access with their G or FB account they must be registered unequivocal
users. The blockchain or other crypto is not necessary because the system
is centralized but it may be used as proof of identity.
I believe the system should be transparent and community controlled and the
state government as we know today will be outlaw.
Somewhere it must start and the process is not straight forward otherwise
will be a revolution and from a revolution cannot start the implementation
of a fully democratic process.
We must go stage by stage, regarding local to global this is also a process
and I believe will be happening once the model is proven doing good
somewhere, then people will start to demand to use it more and more. But we
are entering into fanta-politics and I prefer to concentrate in practical,
user-friendly, well defined method, understandable by all, usable by all,
accessible platform, secure and faire.

I hope I answer to some doubt.
Ciao
jacopo
The *Global Challenges Foundation Newsletter* states it "will make
available a database of the top submissions for...the public to read,
examine and improve.”
I’m anxious to review and evaluate the entries that are made available to
see if they can be morphed, combined, or synthesized into some synergistic,
single platform or system. (Unless of course by some stroke of genius one
of them stands alone as being up to the task.) Beyond critiquing the
*individual* submissions, perhaps it will be possible to cobble together
bits and pieces of various entries into a single (more) comprehensive or workable
design.
_______________________________________________
Start : a mailing list of the Metagovernment project
http://www.metagovernment.org/
Manage subscription: http://metagovernment.org/mailman/listinfo/start_
metagovernment.org
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