Discussion:
[MG] Intro video to my Direct Democracy project
Patrick Millerd
2017-02-05 07:36:49 UTC
Permalink
Recently recorded this video that I will use as my pitch template of sorts
to promote the forum I've created. Always interested to hear opinions from
you guys, either about the video or the site in general.
www.theinternetswebsite.com is the forum, there's a link to a basic rundown
of the site's functionality below the main banner there if you wanna test
things out.

is my promo video for now. Let
me know thoughts.
Thanks
Scott Raney
2017-02-05 16:47:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Patrick Millerd
Recently recorded this video that I will use as my pitch template of sorts
to promote the forum I've created. Always interested to hear opinions from
you guys, either about the video or the site in general.
www.theinternetswebsite.com is the forum, there's a link to a basic rundown
of the site's functionality below the main banner there if you wanna test
things out.
Best thing on there I think is the description of the failure modes of
forums in general, although it maybe seems a little too reminiscent of
"troll bingo" (search Google images to see some cards):
http://www.theinternetswebsite.com/?vroot=69

That said, I think you must be very careful when making the call
between what is "social engineering" and what is "emergent
phenomenon". Most of the things on there IMHO are actually the latter
whereas you seem to consider them to be the former. Worse, I don't see
any social engineering *solutions* to these problems discussed, either
on that page or in the design of the system other than maybe
"education", and I'm doubtful that that'll be enough, even if you
could achieve it (which you can't).

You also have the same "bootstrapping" problem we all face: How to get
the system complete enough so that people can actually see how it
works (i.e., having proposals actually in the voting phase) without
having any proposals that have gone through the entire process yet...
Post by Patrick Millerd
http://youtu.be/OhqWIoUbvVc is my promo video for now. Let
me know thoughts.
There's a typo in the end credits. And, yes, I have a lot of
questions, the big one of course is how this is any different from any
other forum where the same kind of discussions *could* happen but for
some reason never do...
Regards,
Scott
Patrick Millerd
2017-02-05 19:14:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Raney
http://www.theinternetswebsite.com/?vroot=69
That said, I think you must be very careful when making the call
between what is "social engineering" and what is "emergent
phenomenon". Most of the things on there IMHO are actually the latter
whereas you seem to consider them to be the former. Worse, I don't see
any social engineering *solutions* to these problems discussed, either
on that page or in the design of the system other than maybe
"education", and I'm doubtful that that'll be enough, even if you
could achieve it (which you can't).
Whether "social engineering" or "emergent phenomenon", both are issues to
maintaining a mutually productive forum and so we should be aware of the
possibilities they pose. Why the need to determine a difference between
them if they can both be problematic?

The *solutions* to deal with these tactics other than awareness, mostly
come from the transparency of accounts and the rules to posting. Fake
accounts can not spam post nonsense in order to minimize a real post,
accounts will be linked to real identities and posting will need to be
authentic contributing statements. The forum algorithms to post ranking
will assist in promoting proper posts.
Post by Scott Raney
You also have the same "bootstrapping" problem we all face: How to get
the system complete enough so that people can actually see how it
works (i.e., having proposals actually in the voting phase) without
having any proposals that have gone through the entire process yet..
I don't think the process is too complicated for ordinary users to
understand. Propose, discuss, adjust, vote. Just need a handful of active
users to go through and contribute to a few ideas so I can move them to the
voting stage. The users of this mailing list would almost be enough to
achieve this.
Post by Scott Raney
There's a typo in the end credits. And, yes, I have a lot of
questions, the big one of course is how this is any different from any
other forum where the same kind of discussions *could* happen but for
some reason never do...
I noticed the typo, thanks. The big question indeed and obviously I don't
have the definitive answer yet. However, I believe it *will* happen for a
number of differences but mainly because of the focus that my forum is
centered on, it does not get hung up on advocacy or complaining, it does
not focus on the *news*. My forum is designed around results, coming up
with solutions and plans on how to achieve them. This direct focus on
action encourages users that their efforts will not be wasted, it's more
than just discussion, things might change as a result of their
contributions.

Keep em coming. Cheers
Post by Scott Raney
Regards,
Scott
Post by Patrick Millerd
Recently recorded this video that I will use as my pitch template of
sorts
Post by Patrick Millerd
to promote the forum I've created. Always interested to hear opinions
from
Post by Patrick Millerd
you guys, either about the video or the site in general.
www.theinternetswebsite.com is the forum, there's a link to a basic
rundown
Post by Patrick Millerd
of the site's functionality below the main banner there if you wanna test
things out.
Best thing on there I think is the description of the failure modes of
forums in general, although it maybe seems a little too reminiscent of
http://www.theinternetswebsite.com/?vroot=69
That said, I think you must be very careful when making the call
between what is "social engineering" and what is "emergent
phenomenon". Most of the things on there IMHO are actually the latter
whereas you seem to consider them to be the former. Worse, I don't see
any social engineering *solutions* to these problems discussed, either
on that page or in the design of the system other than maybe
"education", and I'm doubtful that that'll be enough, even if you
could achieve it (which you can't).
You also have the same "bootstrapping" problem we all face: How to get
the system complete enough so that people can actually see how it
works (i.e., having proposals actually in the voting phase) without
having any proposals that have gone through the entire process yet...
Post by Patrick Millerd
http://youtu.be/OhqWIoUbvVc is my promo video for now.
Let
Post by Patrick Millerd
me know thoughts.
There's a typo in the end credits. And, yes, I have a lot of
questions, the big one of course is how this is any different from any
other forum where the same kind of discussions *could* happen but for
some reason never do...
Regards,
Scott
_______________________________________________
Start : a mailing list of the Metagovernment project
http://www.metagovernment.org/
Manage subscription: http://metagovernment.org/mailman/listinfo/start_
metagovernment.org
Scott Raney
2017-02-05 21:44:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Patrick Millerd
Post by Scott Raney
http://www.theinternetswebsite.com/?vroot=69
That said, I think you must be very careful when making the call
between what is "social engineering" and what is "emergent
phenomenon". Most of the things on there IMHO are actually the latter
whereas you seem to consider them to be the former. Worse, I don't see
any social engineering *solutions* to these problems discussed, either
on that page or in the design of the system other than maybe
"education", and I'm doubtful that that'll be enough, even if you
could achieve it (which you can't).
Whether "social engineering" or "emergent phenomenon", both are issues to
maintaining a mutually productive forum and so we should be aware of the
possibilities they pose. Why the need to determine a difference between them
if they can both be problematic?
Because the solutions would be very different (i.e., they'd require
different "classes" of social engineering countermeasures, as defined
in the Matchism manifesto
http://www.matchism.org/social-engineering/). Emergent things can
probably be fixed by just changing the UI (e.g., making searching and
sorting easier), ie. class 1 or maybe 2. Trolls, however, require a
firmer touch (class 3) where you actively try to change *their*
behavior (instituting punishments, for example).
Post by Patrick Millerd
The *solutions* to deal with these tactics other than awareness, mostly come
from the transparency of accounts and the rules to posting. Fake accounts
can not spam post nonsense in order to minimize a real post, accounts will
be linked to real identities and posting will need to be authentic
contributing statements. The forum algorithms to post ranking will assist in
promoting proper posts.
Agreed: The trolls will hate it because it might expose them to real
world consequences and therefore refuse to participate (all the while
ranting about censorship). I still don't understand why so many
newspapers and other organizations just shut down their forums rather
than just change to require some sort of authentication. I can see why
most forums don't do this, though: it's because they're designed to
sell eyeballs, not facilitate discussion...
Post by Patrick Millerd
Post by Scott Raney
You also have the same "bootstrapping" problem we all face: How to get
the system complete enough so that people can actually see how it
works (i.e., having proposals actually in the voting phase) without
having any proposals that have gone through the entire process yet..
I don't think the process is too complicated for ordinary users to
understand. Propose, discuss, adjust, vote. Just need a handful of active
users to go through and contribute to a few ideas so I can move them to the
voting stage. The users of this mailing list would almost be enough to
achieve this.
It's not an issue of complexity, it's a marketing problem: I looked
over the site and saw that nothing was in the voting phase and sort of
lost interest because of that. I'm also planning to skip all the
truly local issues because it's impossible to generate any traction
with a focus that narrow...
Regards,
Scott
Patrick Millerd
2017-02-06 06:57:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Raney
Post by Patrick Millerd
Whether "social engineering" or "emergent phenomenon", both are issues to
maintaining a mutually productive forum and so we should be aware of the
possibilities they pose. Why the need to determine a difference between them
if they can both be problematic?
Because the solutions would be very different (i.e., they'd require
different "classes" of social engineering countermeasures, as defined
in the Matchism manifesto
http://www.matchism.org/social-engineering/). Emergent things can
probably be fixed by just changing the UI (e.g., making searching and
sorting easier), ie. class 1 or maybe 2. Trolls, however, require a
firmer touch (class 3) where you actively try to change *their*
behavior (instituting punishments, for example).
This is where our systems differ slightly I think. You seem to want to
allow anyone to post anything and have users personally filter out the
content they don't want to be exposed to. I want to have rules as to what
type of post is allowed and enforce posting penalties to users that don't
follow the rules. In my system, the UI would warn when it suspected that a
post may be breaking one of the rules. In this way, I don't see a need to
put them in different classes, but maybe you can give me an example.
Post by Scott Raney
It's not an issue of complexity, it's a marketing problem: I looked
over the site and saw that nothing was in the voting phase and sort of
lost interest because of that. I'm also planning to skip all the
truly local issues because it's impossible to generate any traction
with a focus that narrow...
Fair enough, I could put something in the voting phase, but it seemed
ingenuous as there wasn't a real discussion that took place to warrant it
being there. You can still cast an early vote by way of propping (upvote)
though it's not official, just helps gauge the level of interest in the
proposal.
Post by Scott Raney
And, yes, I have a lot of
questions, the big one of course is how this is any different from any
other forum where the same kind of discussions *could* happen but for
some reason never do...
Seeing as you didn't respond to my reply to this question, I'll assume is
was satisfactory. Any other questions?

Cheers
Post by Scott Raney
Post by Patrick Millerd
Post by Scott Raney
http://www.theinternetswebsite.com/?vroot=69
That said, I think you must be very careful when making the call
between what is "social engineering" and what is "emergent
phenomenon". Most of the things on there IMHO are actually the latter
whereas you seem to consider them to be the former. Worse, I don't see
any social engineering *solutions* to these problems discussed, either
on that page or in the design of the system other than maybe
"education", and I'm doubtful that that'll be enough, even if you
could achieve it (which you can't).
Whether "social engineering" or "emergent phenomenon", both are issues to
maintaining a mutually productive forum and so we should be aware of the
possibilities they pose. Why the need to determine a difference between
them
Post by Patrick Millerd
if they can both be problematic?
Because the solutions would be very different (i.e., they'd require
different "classes" of social engineering countermeasures, as defined
in the Matchism manifesto
http://www.matchism.org/social-engineering/). Emergent things can
probably be fixed by just changing the UI (e.g., making searching and
sorting easier), ie. class 1 or maybe 2. Trolls, however, require a
firmer touch (class 3) where you actively try to change *their*
behavior (instituting punishments, for example).
Post by Patrick Millerd
The *solutions* to deal with these tactics other than awareness, mostly
come
Post by Patrick Millerd
from the transparency of accounts and the rules to posting. Fake accounts
can not spam post nonsense in order to minimize a real post, accounts
will
Post by Patrick Millerd
be linked to real identities and posting will need to be authentic
contributing statements. The forum algorithms to post ranking will
assist in
Post by Patrick Millerd
promoting proper posts.
Agreed: The trolls will hate it because it might expose them to real
world consequences and therefore refuse to participate (all the while
ranting about censorship). I still don't understand why so many
newspapers and other organizations just shut down their forums rather
than just change to require some sort of authentication. I can see why
most forums don't do this, though: it's because they're designed to
sell eyeballs, not facilitate discussion...
Post by Patrick Millerd
Post by Scott Raney
You also have the same "bootstrapping" problem we all face: How to get
the system complete enough so that people can actually see how it
works (i.e., having proposals actually in the voting phase) without
having any proposals that have gone through the entire process yet..
I don't think the process is too complicated for ordinary users to
understand. Propose, discuss, adjust, vote. Just need a handful of active
users to go through and contribute to a few ideas so I can move them to
the
Post by Patrick Millerd
voting stage. The users of this mailing list would almost be enough to
achieve this.
It's not an issue of complexity, it's a marketing problem: I looked
over the site and saw that nothing was in the voting phase and sort of
lost interest because of that. I'm also planning to skip all the
truly local issues because it's impossible to generate any traction
with a focus that narrow...
Regards,
Scott
_______________________________________________
Start : a mailing list of the Metagovernment project
http://www.metagovernment.org/
Manage subscription: http://metagovernment.org/mailman/listinfo/start_
metagovernment.org
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