[MG] state of the wiki?

Hi Pietro,

The wiki software is outdated. I have taken the task to update it, but I am
not working on it (I prefer "prediction of goodness"). There was also
another volunteer, but Ed did not reply to him as much as I know :(

Tip: you may see the wiki page content when you edit it.

Cheers
M.

michalstepanek.github.io

On Mar 12, 2017 12:23 PM, "Pietro Speroni di Fenizio" <
***@pietrosperoni.it> wrote:

Hello,
I have been not active in this list for some time. What is going on with
the wiki?

Why has everything disappeared?

Thanks,
Pietro

_______________________________________________
Start : a mailing list of the Metagovernment project
http://www.metagovernment.org/
Post to the list: ***@metagovernment.org
Manage subscription: http://metagovernment.org/mailman/listinfo/start_
metagovernment.org

Pietro Speroni di Fenizio

2017-03-12 15:49:11 UTC

Hello Michal,
What does it mean
" I have taken the task to update it, but I am not working on it"

why is all the material not appearing. I see the material in the history,
and when I edit it, but then it does not appear. Is there some global
settings that needs to be changed?

P

----------

Dr. Pietro Speroni di Fenizio,

Home Page: http://www.pietrosperoni.it
New Book: Designing an eDemocracy. Get involved on Patreon:
http://patreon.com/pietrosperoni

Post by Michal Å tÄpÃ¡nek
Hi Pietro,
The wiki software is outdated. I have taken the task to update it, but I
am not working on it (I prefer "prediction of goodness"). There was also
another volunteer, but Ed did not reply to him as much as I know :(
Tip: you may see the wiki page content when you edit it.
Cheers
M.
michalstepanek.github.io
On Mar 12, 2017 12:23 PM, "Pietro Speroni di Fenizio" <
Hello,
I have been not active in this list for some time. What is going on with
the wiki?
Why has everything disappeared?
Thanks,
Pietro
_______________________________________________
Start : a mailing list of the Metagovernment project
http://www.metagovernment.org/
Manage subscription: http://metagovernment.org/mail
man/listinfo/start_metagovernment.org

Ed Pastore

2017-03-12 16:14:18 UTC

Pietro, my previous note on it is here:
http://metagovernment.org/pipermail/start_metagovernment.org/2016-January/007890.html

Sorry I have not been active; I still am not finding the bandwidth to participate meaningfully; though I am keeping up with the basics of keeping the list/domain running.

Post by Pietro Speroni di Fenizio
Hello Michal,
What does it mean
" I have taken the task to update it, but I am not working on it"
why is all the material not appearing. I see the material in the history, and when I edit it, but then it does not appear. Is there some global settings that needs to be changed?
P
----------
Dr. Pietro Speroni di Fenizio,
Home Page: http://www.pietrosperoni.it
New Book: Designing an eDemocracy. Get involved on Patreon: http://patreon.com/pietrosperoni
Hi Pietro,
The wiki software is outdated. I have taken the task to update it, but I am not working on it (I prefer "prediction of goodness"). There was also another volunteer, but Ed did not reply to him as much as I know :(
Tip: you may see the wiki page content when you edit it.
Cheers
M.
michalstepanek.github.io
Hello,
I have been not active in this list for some time. What is going on with the wiki?
Why has everything disappeared?
Thanks,
Pietro
_______________________________________________
Start : a mailing list of the Metagovernment project
http://www.metagovernment.org/
Manage subscription: http://metagovernment.org/mailman/listinfo/start_metagovernment.org
_______________________________________________
Start : a mailing list of the Metagovernment project
http://www.metagovernment.org/
Manage subscription: http://metagovernment.org/mailman/listinfo/start_metagovernment.org

Pietro Speroni di Fenizio

2017-03-12 16:48:20 UTC

Thanks Ed.
So in the thread sounds like you asked for help. Did anyone answer your
request?

P

----------

Dr. Pietro Speroni di Fenizio,

Home Page: http://www.pietrosperoni.it
New Book: Designing an eDemocracy. Get involved on Patreon:
http://patreon.com/pietrosperoni

Post by Ed Pastore
http://metagovernment.org/pipermail/start_metagovernment.org/2016-
January/007890.html
Sorry I have not been active; I still am not finding the bandwidth to
participate meaningfully; though I am keeping up with the basics of keeping
the list/domain running.

On Mar 12, 2017, at 11:49 AM, Pietro Speroni di Fenizio <
Hello Michal,
What does it mean
" I have taken the task to update it, but I am not working on it"
why is all the material not appearing. I see the material in the

history, and when I edit it, but then it does not appear. Is there some
global settings that needs to be changed?

P
----------
Dr. Pietro Speroni di Fenizio,
Home Page: http://www.pietrosperoni.it

http://patreon.com/pietrosperoni

Hi Pietro,
The wiki software is outdated. I have taken the task to update it, but I

am not working on it (I prefer "prediction of goodness"). There was also
another volunteer, but Ed did not reply to him as much as I know :(

Tip: you may see the wiki page content when you edit it.
Cheers
M.
michalstepanek.github.io
On Mar 12, 2017 12:23 PM, "Pietro Speroni di Fenizio" <
Hello,
I have been not active in this list for some time. What is going on with

the wiki?

Why has everything disappeared?
Thanks,
Pietro
_______________________________________________
Start : a mailing list of the Metagovernment project
http://www.metagovernment.org/
Manage subscription: http://metagovernment.org/mailman/listinfo/start_

metagovernment.org

Kris Barnhoorn

2017-03-13 09:05:50 UTC

Hi Everyone,

I'm the volunteer Michal is referring to. If I can have access to the
server files and database i can have a look for the upgrade and restoring
the website/wiki.

Best regards,
Kris.

On Sun, Mar 12, 2017 at 5:48 PM, Pietro Speroni di Fenizio <

Post by Pietro Speroni di Fenizio
Thanks Ed.
So in the thread sounds like you asked for help. Did anyone answer your
request?
P
----------
Dr. Pietro Speroni di Fenizio,
Home Page: http://www.pietrosperoni.it
http://patreon.com/pietrosperoni

Post by Ed Pastore
http://metagovernment.org/pipermail/start_metagovernment.
org/2016-January/007890.html
Sorry I have not been active; I still am not finding the bandwidth to
participate meaningfully; though I am keeping up with the basics of keeping
the list/domain running.

history, and when I edit it, but then it does not appear. Is there some
global settings that needs to be changed?

P
----------
Dr. Pietro Speroni di Fenizio,
Home Page: http://www.pietrosperoni.it

http://patreon.com/pietrosperoni

Hi Pietro,
The wiki software is outdated. I have taken the task to update it, but

I am not working on it (I prefer "prediction of goodness"). There was also
another volunteer, but Ed did not reply to him as much as I know :(

with the wiki?

man/listinfo/start_metagovernment.org

_______________________________________________
Start : a mailing list of the Metagovernment project
http://www.metagovernment.org/
Manage subscription: http://metagovernment.org/mail

man/listinfo/start_metagovernment.org

Michal Štěpánek

2017-03-13 12:52:52 UTC

Great, thanks Kris.

@Ed, if you like it more, I may update the wiki following Kris'
instructions.

Cheers
M.

michalstepanek.github.io

On Mar 13, 2017 10:06 AM, "Kris Barnhoorn" <***@sumerion.com> wrote:

Hi Everyone,

I'm the volunteer Michal is referring to. If I can have access to the
server files and database i can have a look for the upgrade and restoring
the website/wiki.

Best regards,
Kris.

On Sun, Mar 12, 2017 at 5:48 PM, Pietro Speroni di Fenizio <

Post by Ed Pastore
http://metagovernment.org/pipermail/start_metagovernment.org
/2016-January/007890.html
Sorry I have not been active; I still am not finding the bandwidth to
participate meaningfully; though I am keeping up with the basics of keeping
the list/domain running.

history, and when I edit it, but then it does not appear. Is there some
global settings that needs to be changed?

P
----------
Dr. Pietro Speroni di Fenizio,
Home Page: http://www.pietrosperoni.it

http://patreon.com/pietrosperoni

Hi Pietro,
The wiki software is outdated. I have taken the task to update it, but

I am not working on it (I prefer "prediction of goodness"). There was also
another volunteer, but Ed did not reply to him as much as I know :(

with the wiki?

man/listinfo/start_metagovernment.org

_______________________________________________
Start : a mailing list of the Metagovernment project
http://www.metagovernment.org/
Manage subscription: http://metagovernment.org/mail

man/listinfo/start_metagovernment.org

_______________________________________________
Start : a mailing list of the Metagovernment project
http://www.metagovernment.org/
Post to the list: ***@metagovernment.org
Manage subscription: http://metagovernment.org/mailman/listinfo/start_
metagovernment.org

Pietro Speroni di Fenizio

2017-03-13 13:50:08 UTC

All this would be great :-).

----------

Dr. Pietro Speroni di Fenizio,

Home Page: http://www.pietrosperoni.it
New Book: Designing an eDemocracy. Get involved on Patreon:
http://patreon.com/pietrosperoni

Post by Michal Å tÄpÃ¡nek
Great, thanks Kris.
@Ed, if you like it more, I may update the wiki following Kris'
instructions.
Cheers
M.
michalstepanek.github.io
Hi Everyone,
I'm the volunteer Michal is referring to. If I can have access to the
server files and database i can have a look for the upgrade and restoring
the website/wiki.
Best regards,
Kris.
On Sun, Mar 12, 2017 at 5:48 PM, Pietro Speroni di Fenizio <

Post by Ed Pastore
http://metagovernment.org/pipermail/start_metagovernment.org
/2016-January/007890.html
Sorry I have not been active; I still am not finding the bandwidth to
participate meaningfully; though I am keeping up with the basics of keeping
the list/domain running.

history, and when I edit it, but then it does not appear. Is there some
global settings that needs to be changed?

P
----------
Dr. Pietro Speroni di Fenizio,
Home Page: http://www.pietrosperoni.it

http://patreon.com/pietrosperoni

Hi Pietro,
The wiki software is outdated. I have taken the task to update it, but

I am not working on it (I prefer "prediction of goodness"). There was also
another volunteer, but Ed did not reply to him as much as I know :(

with the wiki?

man/listinfo/start_metagovernment.org

_______________________________________________
Start : a mailing list of the Metagovernment project
http://www.metagovernment.org/
Manage subscription: http://metagovernment.org/mail

man/listinfo/start_metagovernment.org

Ed Pastore

2017-03-13 17:38:49 UTC

My only concern is that there be no objections from the community, as this level of admin access is a position of trust.

Kris, if you would be willing to take on this task, could you also be willing to tell us a little bit more about yourself?

Post by Pietro Speroni di Fenizio
All this would be great :-).
----------
Dr. Pietro Speroni di Fenizio,
Home Page: http://www.pietrosperoni.it
New Book: Designing an eDemocracy. Get involved on Patreon: http://patreon.com/pietrosperoni
Great, thanks Kris.
@Ed, if you like it more, I may update the wiki following Kris' instructions.
Cheers
M.
michalstepanek.github.io
Hi Everyone,
I'm the volunteer Michal is referring to. If I can have access to the server files and database i can have a look for the upgrade and restoring the website/wiki.
Best regards,
Kris.
Thanks Ed.
So in the thread sounds like you asked for help. Did anyone answer your request?
P
----------
Dr. Pietro Speroni di Fenizio,
Home Page: http://www.pietrosperoni.it
New Book: Designing an eDemocracy. Get involved on Patreon: http://patreon.com/pietrosperoni
http://metagovernment.org/pipermail/start_metagovernment.org/2016-January/007890.html
Sorry I have not been active; I still am not finding the bandwidth to participate meaningfully; though I am keeping up with the basics of keeping the list/domain running.

_______________________________________________
Start : a mailing list of the Metagovernment project
http://www.metagovernment.org/
Manage subscription: http://metagovernment.org/mailman/listinfo/start_metagovernment.org
_______________________________________________
Start : a mailing list of the Metagovernment project
http://www.metagovernment.org/
Manage subscription: http://metagovernment.org/mailman/listinfo/start_metagovernment.org
_______________________________________________
Start : a mailing list of the Metagovernment project
http://www.metagovernment.org/
Manage subscription: http://metagovernment.org/mailman/listinfo/start_metagovernment.org
_______________________________________________
Start : a mailing list of the Metagovernment project
http://www.metagovernment.org/
Manage subscription: http://metagovernment.org/mailman/listinfo/start_metagovernment.org

Kris Barnhoorn

2017-03-13 20:59:52 UTC

Of course

I'm programmer out of Belgium with an interest for Metagovernment for a
little over 5 year. I also support the UBI movement and think we (human
race, states/communities, ...) should do more experiments both on
democratic and economic level. I was CTO of konoz.io for 3 years (the
project stopped in nov 2016) which was a startup creating courses out of
freely available educational youtube videos and provided crowdfunding tools
for educators in a patreon fashion. For the moment I give advice to a
company about development practices and devops. In the weekends I sometimes
DJ and make some electronic beats ;)

My socials:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/krisbarnhoorn/
https://twitter.com/sumerion
https://www.facebook.com/kris.barnhoorn

Another way to approach it would be to give me the output of phpinfo() and
the database type/version (maybe also the hosting provider and hosting
type). Also give an export of the database and an archive of the server
files. I can reproduce the environment, fix the site and give back the
solution for you to install. That gives you a buffer while we build up the
trust level :)

Best,
Kris.

Post by Ed Pastore
My only concern is that there be no objections from the community, as this
level of admin access is a position of trust.
Kris, if you would be willing to take on this task, could you also be
willing to tell us a little bit more about yourself?

On Mar 13, 2017, at 9:50 AM, Pietro Speroni di Fenizio <
All this would be great :-).
----------
Dr. Pietro Speroni di Fenizio,
Home Page: http://www.pietrosperoni.it

http://patreon.com/pietrosperoni

Great, thanks Kris.
@Ed, if you like it more, I may update the wiki following Kris'

instructions.

Cheers
M.
michalstepanek.github.io
Hi Everyone,
I'm the volunteer Michal is referring to. If I can have access to the

server files and database i can have a look for the upgrade and restoring
the website/wiki.

Best regards,
Kris.
On Sun, Mar 12, 2017 at 5:48 PM, Pietro Speroni di Fenizio <
Thanks Ed.
So in the thread sounds like you asked for help. Did anyone answer your

request?

P
----------
Dr. Pietro Speroni di Fenizio,
Home Page: http://www.pietrosperoni.it

http://patreon.com/pietrosperoni

http://metagovernment.org/pipermail/start_metagovernment.org/2016-

January/007890.html

Sorry I have not been active; I still am not finding the bandwidth to

participate meaningfully; though I am keeping up with the basics of keeping
the list/domain running.

history, and when I edit it, but then it does not appear. Is there some
global settings that needs to be changed?

P
----------
Dr. Pietro Speroni di Fenizio,
Home Page: http://www.pietrosperoni.it

http://patreon.com/pietrosperoni

Hi Pietro,
The wiki software is outdated. I have taken the task to update it, but

I am not working on it (I prefer "prediction of goodness"). There was also
another volunteer, but Ed did not reply to him as much as I know :(

with the wiki?

metagovernment.org

metagovernment.org
_______________________________________________
Start : a mailing list of the Metagovernment project
http://www.metagovernment.org/
Manage subscription: http://metagovernment.org/mailman/listinfo/start_
metagovernment.org

Ed Pastore

2017-03-14 03:36:53 UTC

I am okay with sharing admin access with you, if there are no objections from other members of the community.

I, um, also may need some help on how to share the proper permissions securely. I have been away from sysadmining for a decade and my technical knowledge is rusty.

Post by Kris Barnhoorn
Of course
I'm programmer out of Belgium with an interest for Metagovernment for a little over 5 year. I also support the UBI movement and think we (human race, states/communities, ...) should do more experiments both on democratic and economic level. I was CTO of konoz.io for 3 years (the project stopped in nov 2016) which was a startup creating courses out of freely available educational youtube videos and provided crowdfunding tools for educators in a patreon fashion. For the moment I give advice to a company about development practices and devops. In the weekends I sometimes DJ and make some electronic beats ;)
https://www.linkedin.com/in/krisbarnhoorn/
https://twitter.com/sumerion
https://www.facebook.com/kris.barnhoorn
Another way to approach it would be to give me the output of phpinfo() and the database type/version (maybe also the hosting provider and hosting type). Also give an export of the database and an archive of the server files. I can reproduce the environment, fix the site and give back the solution for you to install. That gives you a buffer while we build up the trust level :)
Best,
Kris.
My only concern is that there be no objections from the community, as this level of admin access is a position of trust.
Kris, if you would be willing to take on this task, could you also be willing to tell us a little bit more about yourself?

Ed Pastore

2017-03-17 16:47:21 UTC

I don’t see any objections, so please just tell me how to proceed, Kris.

Post by Ed Pastore
I am okay with sharing admin access with you, if there are no objections from other members of the community.
I, um, also may need some help on how to share the proper permissions securely. I have been away from sysadmining for a decade and my technical knowledge is rusty.

Pietro Speroni di Fenizio

2017-03-17 17:11:40 UTC

+1

----------

Dr. Pietro Speroni di Fenizio,

Home Page: http://www.pietrosperoni.it
New Book: Designing an eDemocracy. Get involved on Patreon:
http://patreon.com/pietrosperoni

I donât see any objections, so please just tell me how to proceed, Kris.

Post by Ed Pastore
I am okay with sharing admin access with you, if there are no objections

from other members of the community.

Post by Ed Pastore
I, um, also may need some help on how to share the proper permissions

securely. I have been away from sysadmining for a decade and my technical
knowledge is rusty.

Post by Kris Barnhoorn
Of course
I'm programmer out of Belgium with an interest for Metagovernment for a

little over 5 year. I also support the UBI movement and think we (human
race, states/communities, ...) should do more experiments both on
democratic and economic level. I was CTO of konoz.io for 3 years (the
project stopped in nov 2016) which was a startup creating courses out of
freely available educational youtube videos and provided crowdfunding tools
for educators in a patreon fashion. For the moment I give advice to a
company about development practices and devops. In the weekends I sometimes
DJ and make some electronic beats ;)

Post by Kris Barnhoorn
https://www.linkedin.com/in/krisbarnhoorn/
https://twitter.com/sumerion
https://www.facebook.com/kris.barnhoorn
Another way to approach it would be to give me the output of phpinfo()

and the database type/version (maybe also the hosting provider and hosting
type). Also give an export of the database and an archive of the server
files. I can reproduce the environment, fix the site and give back the
solution for you to install. That gives you a buffer while we build up the
trust level :)

Post by Kris Barnhoorn
Best,
Kris.
On Mon, Mar 13, 2017 at 6:38 PM, Ed Pastore <
My only concern is that there be no objections from the community, as

this level of admin access is a position of trust.

Post by Kris Barnhoorn
Kris, if you would be willing to take on this task, could you also be

willing to tell us a little bit more about yourself?

On Mar 13, 2017, at 9:50 AM, Pietro Speroni di Fenizio <
All this would be great :-).
----------
Dr. Pietro Speroni di Fenizio,
Home Page: http://www.pietrosperoni.it

http://patreon.com/pietrosperoni

Great, thanks Kris.
@Ed, if you like it more, I may update the wiki following Kris'

instructions.

Cheers
M.
michalstepanek.github.io
Hi Everyone,
I'm the volunteer Michal is referring to. If I can have access to the

server files and database i can have a look for the upgrade and restoring
the website/wiki.

Best regards,
Kris.
On Sun, Mar 12, 2017 at 5:48 PM, Pietro Speroni di Fenizio <
Thanks Ed.
So in the thread sounds like you asked for help. Did anyone answer

your request?

P
----------
Dr. Pietro Speroni di Fenizio,
Home Page: http://www.pietrosperoni.it

http://patreon.com/pietrosperoni

http://metagovernment.org/pipermail/start_metagovernment.org/2016-

January/007890.html

Sorry I have not been active; I still am not finding the bandwidth to

participate meaningfully; though I am keeping up with the basics of keeping
the list/domain running.

history, and when I edit it, but then it does not appear. Is there some
global settings that needs to be changed?

P
----------
Dr. Pietro Speroni di Fenizio,
Home Page: http://www.pietrosperoni.it

http://patreon.com/pietrosperoni

Hi Pietro,
The wiki software is outdated. I have taken the task to update it,

but I am not working on it (I prefer "prediction of goodness"). There was
also another volunteer, but Ed did not reply to him as much as I know :(

with the wiki?

mailman/listinfo/start_metagovernment.org

_______________________________________________
Start : a mailing list of the Metagovernment project
http://www.metagovernment.org/
Manage subscription: http://metagovernment.org/

mailman/listinfo/start_metagovernment.org

metagovernment.org

metagovernment.org

metagovernment.org

metagovernment.org

Post by Kris Barnhoorn
_______________________________________________
Start : a mailing list of the Metagovernment project
http://www.metagovernment.org/
Manage subscription: http://metagovernment.org/mailman/listinfo/start_

metagovernment.org

metagovernment.org

Post by Ed Pastore
_______________________________________________
Start : a mailing list of the Metagovernment project
http://www.metagovernment.org/
Manage subscription: http://metagovernment.org/mailman/listinfo/start_

Kris Barnhoorn

2017-04-23 17:53:39 UTC

Hi Guys,

The wiki has been upgraded and is operational again.

I'd like for you to have a look around to see if everything works as it
should.
http://metagovernment.org/wiki/Main_Page

After your feedback I'll remove the maintenance warning and remove the old
files.

Thanks,
Kris.

On Fri, Mar 17, 2017 at 6:11 PM, Pietro Speroni di Fenizio <

Post by Pietro Speroni di Fenizio
+1
----------
Dr. Pietro Speroni di Fenizio,
Home Page: http://www.pietrosperoni.it
http://patreon.com/pietrosperoni

I donât see any objections, so please just tell me how to proceed, Kris.

Post by Ed Pastore
I am okay with sharing admin access with you, if there are no

objections from other members of the community.

Post by Ed Pastore
I, um, also may need some help on how to share the proper permissions

securely. I have been away from sysadmining for a decade and my technical
knowledge is rusty.

Post by Kris Barnhoorn
Of course
I'm programmer out of Belgium with an interest for Metagovernment for

a little over 5 year. I also support the UBI movement and think we (human
race, states/communities, ...) should do more experiments both on
democratic and economic level. I was CTO of konoz.io for 3 years (the
project stopped in nov 2016) which was a startup creating courses out of
freely available educational youtube videos and provided crowdfunding tools
for educators in a patreon fashion. For the moment I give advice to a
company about development practices and devops. In the weekends I sometimes
DJ and make some electronic beats ;)

Post by Kris Barnhoorn
Best,
Kris.
On Mon, Mar 13, 2017 at 6:38 PM, Ed Pastore <
My only concern is that there be no objections from the community, as

this level of admin access is a position of trust.

Post by Kris Barnhoorn
Kris, if you would be willing to take on this task, could you also be

willing to tell us a little bit more about yourself?

On Mar 13, 2017, at 9:50 AM, Pietro Speroni di Fenizio <
All this would be great :-).
----------
Dr. Pietro Speroni di Fenizio,
Home Page: http://www.pietrosperoni.it

http://patreon.com/pietrosperoni

Great, thanks Kris.
@Ed, if you like it more, I may update the wiki following Kris'

instructions.

Cheers
M.
michalstepanek.github.io
Hi Everyone,
I'm the volunteer Michal is referring to. If I can have access to the

server files and database i can have a look for the upgrade and restoring
the website/wiki.

Best regards,
Kris.
On Sun, Mar 12, 2017 at 5:48 PM, Pietro Speroni di Fenizio <
Thanks Ed.
So in the thread sounds like you asked for help. Did anyone answer

your request?

P
----------
Dr. Pietro Speroni di Fenizio,
Home Page: http://www.pietrosperoni.it

http://patreon.com/pietrosperoni

http://metagovernment.org/pipermail/start_metagovernment.

org/2016-January/007890.html

Sorry I have not been active; I still am not finding the bandwidth to

participate meaningfully; though I am keeping up with the basics of keeping
the list/domain running.

history, and when I edit it, but then it does not appear. Is there some
global settings that needs to be changed?

P
----------
Dr. Pietro Speroni di Fenizio,
Home Page: http://www.pietrosperoni.it

http://patreon.com/pietrosperoni

Hi Pietro,
The wiki software is outdated. I have taken the task to update it,

but I am not working on it (I prefer "prediction of goodness"). There was
also another volunteer, but Ed did not reply to him as much as I know :(

with the wiki?

man/listinfo/start_metagovernment.org

_______________________________________________
Start : a mailing list of the Metagovernment project
http://www.metagovernment.org/
Manage subscription: http://metagovernment.org/mail

man/listinfo/start_metagovernment.org

_______________________________________________
Start : a mailing list of the Metagovernment project
http://www.metagovernment.org/
Manage subscription: http://metagovernment.org/mail

man/listinfo/start_metagovernment.org

_______________________________________________
Start : a mailing list of the Metagovernment project
http://www.metagovernment.org/
Manage subscription: http://metagovernment.org/mail

man/listinfo/start_metagovernment.org

_______________________________________________
Start : a mailing list of the Metagovernment project
http://www.metagovernment.org/
Manage subscription: http://metagovernment.org/mail

man/listinfo/start_metagovernment.org

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Scott Raney

2017-04-23 18:47:02 UTC

Post by Kris Barnhoorn
The wiki has been upgraded and is operational again.

Works, thanks!

Post by Kris Barnhoorn
I'd like for you to have a look around to see if everything works as it
should.
http://metagovernment.org/wiki/Main_Page

Main problem now is that it needs to be upgraded to reflect current
thinking/technology. For example, I believe that we've reached
"consensus" that consensus is not a viable goal for decisionmaking
systems (at least, there no longer seems to be anyone willing to
defend it, which by the "last man standing" rule means we've reached
consensus ;-) So any references to that as a goal need to be removed,
possibly leaving a footnote that it is a deprecated concept. I suggest
we replace it with the concept of large supermajorities having the
effect of increasing legitimacy of decisions and therefore increasing
compliance with them (i.e., as close to consensus as possible can
still be a goal, but we can't use that word anymore without adding
weasel words in front of it, invalidating the concept).

I only found one reference to the "no unresolved objections" rule:
http://metagovernment.org/wiki/MLOVRTO
Ned apparently created that, but there are no internal links to it,
there was no discussion of it on the wiki, and apparently he won't
defend it anymore (at least he has passed on numerous attempts to
engage him on the subject on this list). I note that this proposal
failed even before I got here...

I'd also like to see more on LiquidFeedback, including a link to that
article that describes how it actually works (or more accurately,
doesn't work). I've put that on the matchism site:
http://www.matchism.org/refs/Kling_2015_LQFBforPP.pdf. Anyone
interested in taking that on?

I'll put creating an entry for proxyfor.me on my to-do list.

Post by Kris Barnhoorn
After your feedback I'll remove the maintenance warning and remove the old
files.

Looks good to go!
Regards,
Scott

Pietro Speroni di Fenizio

2017-04-23 18:51:49 UTC

Please keep consensus and bring back the references to Vilfredo. Thanks.

Pietro

----------

Dr. Pietro Speroni di Fenizio,

Home Page: http://www.pietrosperoni.it
New Book: Designing an eDemocracy. Get involved on Patreon:
http://patreon.com/pietrosperoni

Post by Scott Raney

Post by Kris Barnhoorn
The wiki has been upgraded and is operational again.

Works, thanks!

Post by Kris Barnhoorn
I'd like for you to have a look around to see if everything works as it
should.
http://metagovernment.org/wiki/Main_Page

Main problem now is that it needs to be upgraded to reflect current
thinking/technology. For example, I believe that we've reached
"consensus" that consensus is not a viable goal for decisionmaking
systems (at least, there no longer seems to be anyone willing to
defend it, which by the "last man standing" rule means we've reached
consensus ;-) So any references to that as a goal need to be removed,
possibly leaving a footnote that it is a deprecated concept. I suggest
we replace it with the concept of large supermajorities having the
effect of increasing legitimacy of decisions and therefore increasing
compliance with them (i.e., as close to consensus as possible can
still be a goal, but we can't use that word anymore without adding
weasel words in front of it, invalidating the concept).
http://metagovernment.org/wiki/MLOVRTO
Ned apparently created that, but there are no internal links to it,
there was no discussion of it on the wiki, and apparently he won't
defend it anymore (at least he has passed on numerous attempts to
engage him on the subject on this list). I note that this proposal
failed even before I got here...
I'd also like to see more on LiquidFeedback, including a link to that
article that describes how it actually works (or more accurately,
http://www.matchism.org/refs/Kling_2015_LQFBforPP.pdf. Anyone
interested in taking that on?
I'll put creating an entry for proxyfor.me on my to-do list.

Post by Kris Barnhoorn
After your feedback I'll remove the maintenance warning and remove the

old

Post by Kris Barnhoorn
files.

Looks good to go!
Regards,
Scott
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Scott Raney

2017-04-23 19:04:16 UTC

On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 12:51 PM, Pietro Speroni di Fenizio

Post by Pietro Speroni di Fenizio
Please keep consensus

Ah, that means you're willing to attempt to defend it? How do you
propose to handle the "last man standing" problem? What criteria do
you propose to "resolve" objections/vetos when an individual or even a
significant minority simply refuses to acquiesce to the will of the
majority?

Post by Pietro Speroni di Fenizio
and bring back the references to Vilfredo. Thanks.

By all means, but I did see it on the active projects page...
Regards,
Scott

Post by Pietro Speroni di Fenizio
Pietro
----------
Dr. Pietro Speroni di Fenizio,
Home Page: http://www.pietrosperoni.it
http://patreon.com/pietrosperoni

Edward Pastore

2017-04-23 20:02:08 UTC

Thank you, Kris! This is wonderful.

Scott, I think you may be arguing semantics. âConsensusâ does not inherently mean unanimous support. I think most of us would agree that the general idea behind this description is what we are working toward:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consensus_decision-making <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consensus_decision-making>

Note the âDecision rulesâ section, which shows that consensus can mean unanimous, super-majority, or even simple majority:
âOther groups use a consensus process to generate as much agreement as possible, but allow participants to finalize decisions with a decision rule that does not require unanimity."

Post by Scott Raney
On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 12:51 PM, Pietro Speroni di Fenizio

Post by Pietro Speroni di Fenizio
Please keep consensus

Post by Pietro Speroni di Fenizio
and bring back the references to Vilfredo. Thanks.

By all means, but I did see it on the active projects page...
Regards,
Scott

Post by Pietro Speroni di Fenizio
Pietro
----------
Dr. Pietro Speroni di Fenizio,
Home Page: http://www.pietrosperoni.it
http://patreon.com/pietrosperoni

Scott Raney

2017-04-23 22:27:31 UTC

On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 2:02 PM, Edward Pastore

Post by Edward Pastore
Thank you, Kris! This is wonderful.
Scott, I think you may be arguing semantics. “Consensus” does not inherently
mean unanimous support.

To the extent that it doesn't it's vague and therefore a poor choice
of words. To the extent that it does, it allows the minority to
override the Will of The People and is therefore an example of
authoritarian rule. I guess I just don't see the need to continue to
use that term because it makes us (you) look like we don't know what
we're doing. Building a decisionmaking system *is* social engineering,
and no engineer would use a word like that because it's either
imprecise or not what we're doing. Note that I don't have a problem
with "deliberative" or "collaborative" methods in general, however,
because those describe a process, not an outcome.

Post by Edward Pastore
I think most of us would agree that the general idea
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consensus_decision-making

I note that the vast majority of that article assumes "consensus" is
synonymous with "unanimity". Which is also the first definition in
Webster's:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/consensus

And to the extent it doesn't imply unanimity it at least implies
"solidarity" or acquiescence. Which again is *not* something we have
any hope of achieving in any general-purpose decisionmaking system.

Post by Edward Pastore
Note the “Decision rules” section, which shows that consensus can mean
“Other groups use a consensus process to generate as much agreement as
possible, but allow participants to finalize decisions with a decision rule
that does not require unanimity."

OK, then if the word doesn't mean anything useful, why don't we just
stop using it? It's a misrepresentation to say that you have achieved
consensus when a significant minority (perhaps as much as half minus
one) disagree with the decision. Or do you disagree?

An example from the "Collaborative Government" page
http://metagovernment.org/wiki/Collaborative_governance:
"Nobody is expected to participate in each decision, but those who do
must come to a consensus or no action is taken."

What does this mean? Please be specific (i.e., please respond as the
social engineer you're claiming to be by participating in this group).

I also have a problem with another sentence on that page:
"with the implicit understanding that anyone not participating on a
particular issue consents to allow others to decide the issue"

I run into this a lot with politicians and other amateur social
engineers. The assumption seems to be that if people don't show up for
a meeting or protest or whatever that they've given their implied
consent to whatever decision the people who do show up, or who bother
to claim power, make. This is heinous in my opinion and the worst of
the fatal flaws in representative democracy. It's also, of course, the
very problem that inspired the development of proxyfor.me, and which
that system is, perhaps uniquely, designed to solve.
Regards,
Scott

Pietro Speroni di Fenizio

2017-04-24 08:23:31 UTC

I also would like to thank Kris very very much. Sorry for being so brief.
:-)

P.

----------

Dr. Pietro Speroni di Fenizio,

Home Page: http://www.pietrosperoni.it
New Book: Designing an eDemocracy. Get involved on Patreon:
http://patreon.com/pietrosperoni

Post by Scott Raney
On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 2:02 PM, Edward Pastore

Post by Edward Pastore
Thank you, Kris! This is wonderful.
Scott, I think you may be arguing semantics. âConsensusâ does not

inherently

Post by Edward Pastore
mean unanimous support.

Post by Edward Pastore
I think most of us would agree that the general idea
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consensus_decision-making

I note that the vast majority of that article assumes "consensus" is
synonymous with "unanimity". Which is also the first definition in
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/consensus
And to the extent it doesn't imply unanimity it at least implies
"solidarity" or acquiescence. Which again is *not* something we have
any hope of achieving in any general-purpose decisionmaking system.

Post by Edward Pastore
Note the âDecision rulesâ section, which shows that consensus can mean
âOther groups use a consensus process to generate as much agreement as
possible, but allow participants to finalize decisions with a decision

rule

Post by Edward Pastore
that does not require unanimity."

OK, then if the word doesn't mean anything useful, why don't we just
stop using it? It's a misrepresentation to say that you have achieved
consensus when a significant minority (perhaps as much as half minus
one) disagree with the decision. Or do you disagree?
An example from the "Collaborative Government" page
"Nobody is expected to participate in each decision, but those who do
must come to a consensus or no action is taken."
What does this mean? Please be specific (i.e., please respond as the
social engineer you're claiming to be by participating in this group).
"with the implicit understanding that anyone not participating on a
particular issue consents to allow others to decide the issue"
I run into this a lot with politicians and other amateur social
engineers. The assumption seems to be that if people don't show up for
a meeting or protest or whatever that they've given their implied
consent to whatever decision the people who do show up, or who bother
to claim power, make. This is heinous in my opinion and the worst of
the fatal flaws in representative democracy. It's also, of course, the
very problem that inspired the development of proxyfor.me, and which
that system is, perhaps uniquely, designed to solve.
Regards,
Scott
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Edward Pastore

2017-04-25 18:13:50 UTC

Where is it that we are using “consensus” that you are objecting to? To my understanding, consensus decision-making is about the process; and I think it is what most of us support. It is not about the 51% imposing their will on the 49%, but on building a deliberation process whereby all (or most) involved can live with the solution.

To that end, I take exception with focusing on the decision-rule; and prefer the focus on process.

Brexit provides a great example. The British were asked to decide if they should leave or stay in the EU. I find fault with the way this was asked more than the fact that it was passed with a slim majority.

What if instead, the British had been asked: “Many of us have a problem with the effects the EU membership is having on immigration. What can we do to alleviate those concerns while minimizing negative impacts on our membership in the EU?” That would have been a much more complex, nuanced issue to tackle; but it also would have likely produced a different and MUCH better result.

But the British had no system by which they could ask that question of the people. All they had was their representatives in Parliament. So my thought is that we are working on building tools that could facilitate such questions being tackled by citizens.

Concerning participation and consent; my point is not at all that non-participants just have to acquiesce to the decisions of participants. There are literally millions of public policy decisions made that affect your life; and there is no way you are going to participate in all of them. I propose that anyone should be allowed to participate in any deliberation at any moment they want to. If they see a decision being made that they disagree with; they can jump in and change the course of the conversation. But they don’t have to; nor should they be expected to.

Post by Scott Raney
On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 2:02 PM, Edward Pastore

Post by Edward Pastore
Thank you, Kris! This is wonderful.
Scott, I think you may be arguing semantics. “Consensus” does not inherently
mean unanimous support.

Post by Edward Pastore
I think most of us would agree that the general idea
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consensus_decision-making

OK, then if the word doesn't mean anything useful, why don't we just
stop using it? It's a misrepresentation to say that you have achieved
consensus when a significant minority (perhaps as much as half minus
one) disagree with the decision. Or do you disagree?
An example from the "Collaborative Government" page
"Nobody is expected to participate in each decision, but those who do
must come to a consensus or no action is taken."
What does this mean? Please be specific (i.e., please respond as the
social engineer you're claiming to be by participating in this group).
"with the implicit understanding that anyone not participating on a
particular issue consents to allow others to decide the issue"
I run into this a lot with politicians and other amateur social
engineers. The assumption seems to be that if people don't show up for
a meeting or protest or whatever that they've given their implied
consent to whatever decision the people who do show up, or who bother
to claim power, make. This is heinous in my opinion and the worst of
the fatal flaws in representative democracy. It's also, of course, the
very problem that inspired the development of proxyfor.me, and which
that system is, perhaps uniquely, designed to solve.
Regards,
Scott
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Scott Raney

2017-04-26 14:03:52 UTC

On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 12:13 PM, Edward Pastore

Post by Edward Pastore
Where is it that we are using “consensus” that you are objecting to? To my understanding, consensus decision-making is about the process; and I think it is what most of us support. It is not about the 51% imposing their will on the 49%, but on building a deliberation process whereby all (or most) involved can live with the solution.

I asked a *specific* question, and you didn't answer it. Here it is again, FYI:
-- An example from the "Collaborative Government" page
-- http://metagovernment.org/wiki/Collaborative_governance:
-- "Nobody is expected to participate in each decision, but those who do
-- must come to a consensus or no action is taken."
--
-- What does this mean? Please be specific (i.e., please respond as the
-- social engineer you're claiming to be by participating in this group).

Again, to summarize, what *specifically* has to be the outcome before
you will claim that "consensus" has occurred? If the answer is not "At
least 51% of the people agree on something and the rest can go suck
rocks", again, you have to stop using the word "consensus" to describe
the outcome of any decisionmaking process.

Post by Edward Pastore
To that end, I take exception with focusing on the decision-rule; and prefer the focus on process.

Great, then you must stop using the term consensus, which is *BY
FUCKING DEFINITION* an outcome, not a process.

Post by Edward Pastore
Brexit provides a great example. The British were asked to decide if they should leave or stay in the EU. I find fault with the way this was asked more than the fact that it was passed with a slim majority.

There are a whole bunch of things to dislike about that decision ;-)

Post by Edward Pastore
What if instead, the British had been asked: “Many of us have a problem with the effects the EU membership is having on immigration. What can we do to alleviate those concerns while minimizing negative impacts on our membership in the EU?” That would have been a much more complex, nuanced issue to tackle; but it also would have likely produced a different and MUCH better result.

No, it would have produced *no* usable result: That's an invitation to
debate, not a specific proposal that could result in a decision.

Post by Edward Pastore
But the British had no system by which they could ask that question of the people. All they had was their representatives in Parliament. So my thought is that we are working on building tools that could facilitate such questions being tackled by citizens.

I have no problem with asking open-ended questions as part of the
process. But we can't confuse that with making a decision. In fact,
back to the topic, it's even *less* likely to result in any sort of
"consensus" at the end of that stage of the process.

Post by Edward Pastore
Concerning participation and consent; my point is not at all that non-participants just have to acquiesce to the decisions of participants.

Good, then we agree that that sentence needs to be rewritten.

Post by Edward Pastore
There are literally millions of public policy decisions made that affect your life; and there is no way you are going to participate in all of them. I propose that anyone should be allowed to participate in any deliberation at any moment they want to. If they see a decision being made that they disagree with; they can jump in and change the course of the conversation. But they don’t have to; nor should they be expected to.

You didn't answer the question, though: What happens if they *don't*?
Does that mean they have given tacit approval for those that *did*
participate to do whatever they want? If not, again, you agree with me
that the active participants have a *duty* to represent those who
don't. And if they can't or won't do that (which is usually the case)
then the decisionmaking system needs to be designed to ensure this
outcome anyway. Which is why that paragraph on the Wiki needs to be
rewritten, perhaps to include a discussion of how proxyfor.me works
because it is, to my knowledge, the only decisionmaking system that
even attempts to do this.
Regards,
Scott

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Michal Štěpánek

2017-04-23 19:16:32 UTC

Post by Scott Raney

Post by Kris Barnhoorn
The wiki has been upgraded and is operational again.

Works, thanks!

Kris Barnhoorn

2017-04-23 19:43:34 UTC

Post by Michal Å tÄpÃ¡nek

My pleasure! Happy to contribute to this important project.

Based on the feedback I'll remove the maintenance page.

I'll keep the old files for a week or 2 just in case.

Let me know if you find something missing or not working properly.

Cheers
k

Post by Scott Raney

Post by Kris Barnhoorn
The wiki has been upgraded and is operational again.

Works, thanks!

Well, I dot know the american custom, but I would like to thank a little
bit more :D.
I am not sure it is going to feel honest, 'cause my vocabulary and
knowledge of idioms is limited...
Thank you, Kris, I appreciate your endeavor, you did well. I hope we will
be able to utilize your work.
Cheers
m.
(snip)
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Ned Conner

2017-04-23 19:42:57 UTC