Discussion:
[MG] matchism.org/proxyfor.me GCF entry draft
Scott Raney
2017-07-03 23:53:03 UTC
Permalink
Here's the current draft of my entry for the GCF prize:
http://www.matchism.org/refs/GCF_entry.pdf

Questions:
1) Is it intelligible?

2) Is the argument complete, or are there holes to be filled?

3) Is the level of snark appropriate (I didn't follow the rules, and
make specific arguments about why this is necessary and why any entry
that does follow the rules is doomed to failure).

4) I came in at 5100 words for the description (close to the 5500 word
max), but am well under for the other two sections. Have I "left money
on the table" by doing this?

For anyone who hasn't read matchism.org or my other white papers, this
is a good summary of the system and includes only a skeleton
description of the philosophy behind it. It'd therefore be especially
helpful to get your take on it to make sure I didn't leave too much
out.
Regards,
Scott
Steve Coffman
2017-07-04 19:16:44 UTC
Permalink
First off Scott, kudos to you for having put all of this together. In my mind, it's well-thought-out and has obviously been a lot of work.

I’m very curious about the outcome of this competition and am hoping we'll have a chance to peruse the top entries, including the ones that don’t win the big $$$. I appreciate being able to read yours ahead of time and hope you do well!

Overall I would say it’s "intelligible" and "complete" enough. I read the material on Matchism.org <http://matchism.org/> a while back, so I already have a deeper understanding of your project. I think what you’re presenting to this competition will certainly get the overall idea across.

As far as the level of “snark”
. I think you could probably leave out the criticism of those running the competition as being a part of the problem, and still achieve your objective.
"Again this is a decision for The People to make, not some elites running a contest that seeks to “improve” things without being willing to compromise on their “elite” status (or the elite status of “leaders” in other fields or countries) or their preferences for how things should be done."

"What is wrong, at least with respect [to] what’s best for the human species as a whole, is for elites of any sort to prescribe the outcomes of public policy decisionmaking, the people running this competition included."

Also, I noticed a few typos or grammatical errors, like the one in the line above. (Sorry I didn’t make a note of the others.)

Overall, I find myself agreeing with many aspects of your project. I've been working on a decision-making *process/structure* of my own and am surprised to see how many parallels there are between the two. (At this point I don’t know if I will be submitting mine to the GCF competition as I’m not sure I'll have the time to complete it before the 9/30 deadline. And there is a project developing closer to home that may be a more concrete and practical application. We’ll see.)

Also, I have some questions for you:

1. Is there a limit to the number of votes any one proxy can carry? (You may have stated this on your website but I don’t remember seeing it, and it’s a lot of material to reread.)

2. Also, would proxies be aware of how many votes they are representing?

3. I can see how being a proxy (particularly for a large number of people) would be a huge responsibility that might encourage one in that position to become more deeply familiar with the records of candidates, and the complexity of proposals being voted on. I can also see how a large segment of the population, through assigning their votes to a proxy, could ultimately become disengaged from, or abdicate, their civic responsibility by no longer paying as much attention to the issues that matter most. (Not that the malaise of apathy and cynicism generated by our current system is any better.) I’m curious though if you have a deeper sense of how this might actually play out
.in real life
.in that regard?

What I really like about your Plan is how it would make the one-size-fits-all dynamic of political parties obsolete.

All the best,
Steve
Post by Scott Raney
http://www.matchism.org/refs/GCF_entry.pdf
1) Is it intelligible?
2) Is the argument complete, or are there holes to be filled?
3) Is the level of snark appropriate (I didn't follow the rules, and
make specific arguments about why this is necessary and why any entry
that does follow the rules is doomed to failure).
4) I came in at 5100 words for the description (close to the 5500 word
max), but am well under for the other two sections. Have I "left money
on the table" by doing this?
For anyone who hasn't read matchism.org or my other white papers, this
is a good summary of the system and includes only a skeleton
description of the philosophy behind it. It'd therefore be especially
helpful to get your take on it to make sure I didn't leave too much
out.
Regards,
Scott
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Scott Raney
2017-07-04 22:02:35 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, Jul 4, 2017 at 1:16 PM, Steve Coffman <***@stevecoffman.com> wrote:

(kind words snip!)
Overall I would say it’s "intelligible" and "complete" enough. I read the
material on Matchism.org a while back, so I already have a deeper
understanding of your project. I think what you’re presenting to this
competition will certainly get the overall idea across.
Thanks for the feedback!
As far as the level of “snark”…. I think you could probably leave out the
criticism of those running the competition as being a part of the problem,
and still achieve your objective.
I go back and forth on this: Is it better to just ignore the rules or
to point out how they would render any model that follows them
unworkable?
Overall, I find myself agreeing with many aspects of your project. I've been
working on a decision-making *process/structure* of my own and am surprised
to see how many parallels there are between the two. (At this point I don’t
know if I will be submitting mine to the GCF competition as I’m not sure
I'll have the time to complete it before the 9/30 deadline. And there is a
project developing closer to home that may be a more concrete and practical
application. We’ll see.)
I recommend you, and everyone else, take the time to do this: Nothing
like having to write everything down to see if you really understand
your own system. I find holes in mine every time I do this...
1. Is there a limit to the number of votes any one proxy can carry? (You may
have stated this on your website but I don’t remember seeing it, and it’s a
lot of material to reread.)
No. I believe it's essential to have this limit if people can pick
their own proxies, but as that architecture has been proven not to
work, there's really no reason to impose this limit if proxies are
automatically calculated: Better to have a few overloaded people that
really are representational of you than to match you with people who
aren't like you. The major risk here is corruption of those
individuals, but IMHO it's a low risk because it's hard to impossible
to predict where the inflection points are going to be for each
proposal (i.e., which personality/ideology "types" are going to have
the close 50/50 ratio where bribing a few of them will change the
outcome). Then again, if the proposals are well written most of them
will pass with sufficiently large majorities that it would be a
hopeless task to try to change the outcome by bribing a few (or even a
few thousand) individual voters.
2. Also, would proxies be aware of how many votes they are representing?
I don't currently show this, but it's easy enough to calculate, even
using the raw data files that are output at the close of each vote.
The problem now is that the numbers are small and so there's no point,
but it might be useful to show this in the future to encourage certain
personality types to vote more often. Many areas in the search space
are going to be pretty sparse because some personality types are just
rare, but also because there is a correlation between personality
types and participation rates (e.g., high conscientiousness
individuals (mostly conservatives) have significantly higher
participation rates than low-conscientiousness individuals). But this
problem is not unique to proxyfor.me: It's screwing up our existing
misrepresentative democracies already. The result of these unequal
participation rates is that elected officials are significantly more
conservative than the population as a whole.
3. I can see how being a proxy (particularly for a large number of people)
would be a huge responsibility that might encourage one in that position to
become more deeply familiar with the records of candidates, and the
complexity of proposals being voted on. I can also see how a large segment
of the population, through assigning their votes to a proxy, could
ultimately become disengaged from, or abdicate, their civic responsibility
by no longer paying as much attention to the issues that matter most. (Not
that the malaise of apathy and cynicism generated by our current system is
any better.) I’m curious though if you have a deeper sense of how this might
actually play out….in real life….in that regard?
All I can predict is that it'll be a *lot* less of a problem with DeMP
(Democracy by Matched Proxy) than with any other form of democracy.
The only potential problem I see that if the number of available
matches is really low for a significant portion of the population due
to low participation rates that region in the search space will become
a target for people who try to game the system by faking their profile
and then voting opposite to what people with real profiles would.
There are many ways of combating this, though, the most obvious of
which is to have the system automatically calculate where these weak
spots are and send out an engraved invitation to the people nearby to
increase their participation rates lest the bad guys end up jerking
them around. It's sort of the opposite of what you're proposing:
Rather than reward or encourage voters who are carrying a high burden,
we would try to scare non-voters into becoming direct voters by
pointing out that they're likely to be taken advantage of because, as
a group, their participation rates are too low. But note that low
participation rates *in general* are not a problem: I believe you
could run the whole world's government with a few thousand people. But
the key is that the personality/ideology search space of the active
participants needs to have the same distribution as the population as
a whole, which is something we're very, very far from in
misrepresentative democracy.

I also don't worry about the expertise/time investment issue nearly as
much as you (and probably most people working in this field)
apparently do. There are a lot better ways to deal with this than
chaining people to their desks by instilling fear of making a mistake.
The ability to redo a version-upgrade of a proposal being the most
important of these: How many changed votes do you think they'd see if
Brexit were voted on again? Having well-written proposals and
presenting the pro/con arguments right at decision time are two more.
What I really like about your Plan is how it would make the
one-size-fits-all dynamic of political parties obsolete.
Exactly. How much the zealots are going to resist this because they
don't have their "tribe" to fight for remains to be seen, but I am
encourages by the decreasing rates of party affiliation the world
over. I think most people are pretty sick of political parties and
will just override those tribalists when at some point they are given
the opportunity. Getting rid of politicians at the same time I also
figure will appeal to most people.
Regards,
Scott
All the best,
Steve
Scott Raney
2017-07-09 21:30:27 UTC
Permalink
As far as the level of “snark”…. I think you could probably leave out the
criticism of those running the competition as being a part of the problem,
and still achieve your objective.
I'm still struggling with this. I removed all the snark from the model
description section, but am left with a big hole about why the model
doesn't comply with the rules. And so I do believe it's necessary to
confront this issue, and in fact also believe that the people running
the contest *are* likely to be a part of the problem if their winning
entry goes pear-shaped: I'd give any winning entry that follows the
rules about a 99% chance of amounting to nothing, but about a 1%
chance of resulting in global instability (knowing what I know about
human and government behavior, I'd estimate the chances of it actually
achieving the desired outcome at essentially 0%).

So here's what I've got in the "argument" section. Unfortunately I
think it goes beyond mere snark to outright hostility, but "No guts,
no glory", right?

1. Core Values.

It is admittedly a leap of faith that a truly accurate democratic
decisionmaking system will facilitate the stated goals of the GCP
(“the good of all humanity”, “respect for the equal value of all human
beings”, etc.). Nor is there even any guarantee that it will “solve”
the climate change or any other environmental problem in any way that
has been proposed or predicted so far. But it is (or will be) what it
is: A reflection of the Will of The People. To predict that the result
of this change will be counter to any particular set of moral
principles would mean believing that existing government architectures
(dictatorship, oligarchy, and misrepresentative democracy) are somehow
more motivated or able to achieve them. Does anyone believe that?

But what happens if The People decide to not change their lifestyles
by reducing their energy consumption but instead decide that their
response to climate change will be an adaptation strategy where they
force (albeit also fund) the relocation of people in low-elevation
nations/areas? While this would be a “failure” by the criteria
implicitly imposed for the GCP, it is hard to make a coherent argument
that it is actually “wrong”: What is wrong, at least with respect
what’s best for the human species as a whole, is for elites of any
sort to prescribe the outcomes of public policy decisionmaking, The
Will of The People be damned.

This means that although the proposed model has a large overlap with
the overall goals and specific requirements for this competition, it
explicitly and by design does not comply with all of them. The choice
here is clear: You can either prescribe the outcome of a
decisionmaking process and design a system to achieve that result, or
you can decide in advance to accept the result of a global and truly
democratic process and then work to create a system that implements
that process, even if that means putting aside your prescriptions
(biases) about how (or even whether) any particular problem is solved.
In other words, It is simply inappropriate to include requirements
such as “decisions within the governance model must not deal with the
internal affairs of individual states”: Again this is a decision for
The People to make, not some elites running a contest that seeks to
“improve” things without being willing to compromise on their “elite”
status (or the elite status of “leaders” in other fields or countries)
or their preferences for how things should be done.

Unfortunately there is an even bigger misconception that the Global
Challenges Prize (GCP) rules seem to be based on, a requirement that
is also deliberately disregarded in this entry: It is simply not
possible to design a system that corrects for externalities if it is a
requirement that misrepresentation remain a fundamental operating
characteristic of the system (i.e., that “This requirement eliminates
models that rely on time-consuming and controversial changes in the
political system of individual states, e.g. models that postulate that
all states should be democracies.”). To claim (or even hope) otherwise
is merely incompetent social engineering. Imposing this as a
requirement not only will result in a winning entry that will fail to
achieve anything, let alone the goals of the competition, but will
likely be such a spectacular failure that it will set back progress in
this domain for years or decades. Having their hearts in the right
place does not excuse anyone from the responsibility of ensuring that
The People are not harmed as the result of spending millions of
dollars promoting unworkable or even counterproductive ideas. And that
includes any requirement that the system must prop up dictators.

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Steve Coffman
2017-07-10 00:01:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Raney
I'm still struggling with this. I removed all the snark from the model
description section, but am left with a big hole about why the model
doesn't comply with the rules. And so I do believe it's necessary to
confront this issue

Agreed.
Post by Scott Raney
So here's what I've got in the "argument" section.
(big snip)
Post by Scott Raney
It is simply not possible [IMO] to design a system that corrects for externalities if it is a
requirement that [any system currently built on] misrepresentation remain a fundamental operating
characteristic of the system

Very powerful point. Could maybe stand on it’s own.
Post by Scott Raney
To claim (or even hope) otherwise is merely incompetent social engineering.
Meh.
Post by Scott Raney
Imposing this as a
requirement not only will result in a winning entry that will fail to
achieve anything, let alone the goals of the competition,
Big assumption.
Post by Scott Raney
but will likely be such a spectacular failure that it will set back progress in
this domain for years or decades.
Maybe. Maybe the winner(s) will work around that in some way. Like something that allows the Nation State to remain sovereign, but declares individual sovereignty to be even greater, and/or establishes that *Global Citizens* are supreme to *Corporate Citizens*. (We could gain a lot of ground just by instituting the latter.) I think it’s all about setting our priorities. And that to me means building a platform whereby we can collaborate in crafting a collective agreement, at scale. With that in place we could perform all kinds of magic on the current power structures.
Post by Scott Raney
Having their hearts in the right
place does not excuse anyone from the responsibility of ensuring that
The People are not harmed as the result of spending millions of
dollars promoting unworkable or even counterproductive ideas.
If you can express your concern without the snarky judgement and assumption sandwich, you may save your entry from a quick trip to the round file. I’m assuming it’s a real concern and not just some cynical dart you’re throwing. :)
Post by Scott Raney
And that includes any requirement that the system must prop up dictators.
I think I see where you’re coming from. It’s easy for some billionaire to throw a little change at a problem without having thought through the consequences deeply in his own mind. On top of that, he’ll likely earn a substantial dose of celebrity for being all kinds of cuddly things to the current progressive wave of waking discontent. He might even cover has ass (consciously or un) by injecting a little safety clause that safeguards his very comfortable (elite) position in the current hierarchy.

Or he could just be a very fortunate man whose had a change of heart and wants to do the right thing, but the extension in his critical thinking hasn’t yet caught up with the expansion in his heart. It may be that he’s created the Challenge because he feels incapable of generating some workable solution on his own. Who can say?

Personally, I see this Challenge as emerging from a greater existential impulse. I think it’s admirable that you’ve positioned yourself through what I’m guessing has been years of deep thinking and hard work such that you have a very well-developed and intelligent model (IMO) that you can contribute to the Challenge.

If we are going to *crowd-source* a new paradigm, I imagine we’ll need to get very accustomed to working around (what we judge to be) incomplete or faulty reasoning without damaging the connection we have with others. Tricky business!
Scott Raney
2017-07-10 20:29:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Raney
Imposing this as a
requirement not only will result in a winning entry that will fail to
achieve anything, let alone the goals of the competition,
Big assumption.
Not assumption, prediction, perhaps even to the level of actual
"knowledge". As Spock said:

"If I let go of a hammer on a planet that has a positive gravity, I
need not see it fall to know that it has in fact fallen."
Post by Scott Raney
but will likely be such a spectacular failure that it will set back progress in
this domain for years or decades.
Maybe. Maybe the winner(s) will work around that in some way. Like something
that allows the Nation State to remain sovereign, but declares individual
sovereignty to be even greater, and/or establishes that *Global Citizens*
are supreme to *Corporate Citizens*. (We could gain a lot of ground just by
instituting the latter.) I think it’s all about setting our priorities. And
that to me means building a platform whereby we can collaborate in crafting
a collective agreement, at scale. With that in place we could perform all
kinds of magic on the current power structures.
I'm certainly not going to rule out the possibility of someone out
there having an epiphany and coming up with some way around SDAP
behavior that doesn't involve creating a system that prevents SDAPs
from climbing into positions of power. But given that so few people
even realize that this is in fact the problem it seems very unlikely
to me (i.e., most people are going to need to have back-to-back
epiphanies to come up with anything even equivalent to DeMP, let alone
provably better). Unfortunately I see that same blindness in your
comment above. It just doesn't matter what sort of power-sharing
system you come up with: If at its root it relies on SDAPs in existing
government systems (including corporate oligarchies) voluntarily
ceding power to The People it's a hammer that's going to fall whether
you see it or not.
Post by Scott Raney
Post by Scott Raney
Having their hearts in the right
place does not excuse anyone from the responsibility of ensuring that
The People are not harmed as the result of spending millions of
dollars promoting unworkable or even counterproductive ideas.
If you can express your concern without the snarky judgement and assumption
sandwich, you may save your entry from a quick trip to the round file. I’m
assuming it’s a real concern and not just some cynical dart you’re throwing.
:)
It is, but I would concede that it's a pretty minor concern and so can
probably be left out. The odds of them actually harming anyone or
stopping people like us from soldiering on are down there in same the
sub-1% realm that the winning plan will actually amount to anything,
at least to the extent that it follows the rules.
Post by Scott Raney
Post by Scott Raney
And that includes any requirement that the system must prop up dictators.
I think I see where you’re coming from. It’s easy for some billionaire to
throw a little change at a problem without having thought through the
consequences deeply in his own mind. On top of that, he’ll likely earn a
substantial dose of celebrity for being all kinds of cuddly things to the
current progressive wave of waking discontent. He might even cover has ass
(consciously or un) by injecting a little safety clause that safeguards his
very comfortable (elite) position in the current hierarchy.
He's old enough that I doubt he worries about such things. And he
seems to not have any children, hopefully eliminating any bias he
might have against a system that deals with oligarchy in part by
eliminating the custom of inheritance (for the record, though, his
wife was apparently opposed to forming the GCF).

But I wasn't insinuating that I think he has any ulterior motives for
imposing a requirement that the proposed model not destabilize
dictatorships (as a goal or merely as a side-effect). I'm sure they
think imposing such a rule is just a matter of practicality. It's
possible, though, that they also harbor a niggling fear of being held
responsible for being the cause of a revolution in some faraway place.
Post by Scott Raney
If we are going to *crowd-source* a new paradigm, I imagine we’ll need to
get very accustomed to working around (what we judge to be) incomplete or
faulty reasoning without damaging the connection we have with others. Tricky
business!
Tell me about it ;-) Fortunately this *doesn't* seem to be an issue
when explaining my system to regular people. Most of them are rightly
skeptical about its chances, but that always seems to originate from a
cynicism that there is any possibility of taking the-powers-that-be
down a notch or two. It seems to not come from perceived flaws in its
goals or mechanisms (like one gets if one proposes something
recognizable as libertarianism or communism). Even the most rabid
constitutionalists I've dealt with (on FB) seem to at least have half
an open mind about the fact that the US constitution has serious flaws
and that there might be better ways to organize a government.

Thanks for the feedback: I'll take another stab at pruning back the snark ;-)
Regards,
Scott

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Jacopo Tolja
2017-07-12 11:51:05 UTC
Permalink
I suggest to mention the MG and our ML in any of the proposals that may be
generated by members of the MG.
This will draw attention to the effort that we are discussing long before
the GCP was in place given that we have the same goal.
My 2 cents
Jacopo
Post by Scott Raney
Post by Scott Raney
Imposing this as a
requirement not only will result in a winning entry that will fail to
achieve anything, let alone the goals of the competition,
Big assumption.
Not assumption, prediction, perhaps even to the level of actual
"If I let go of a hammer on a planet that has a positive gravity, I
need not see it fall to know that it has in fact fallen."
Post by Scott Raney
but will likely be such a spectacular failure that it will set back
progress
Post by Scott Raney
in
this domain for years or decades.
Maybe. Maybe the winner(s) will work around that in some way. Like
something
Post by Scott Raney
that allows the Nation State to remain sovereign, but declares individual
sovereignty to be even greater, and/or establishes that *Global Citizens*
are supreme to *Corporate Citizens*. (We could gain a lot of ground just
by
Post by Scott Raney
instituting the latter.) I think it’s all about setting our priorities.
And
Post by Scott Raney
that to me means building a platform whereby we can collaborate in
crafting
Post by Scott Raney
a collective agreement, at scale. With that in place we could perform all
kinds of magic on the current power structures.
I'm certainly not going to rule out the possibility of someone out
there having an epiphany and coming up with some way around SDAP
behavior that doesn't involve creating a system that prevents SDAPs
from climbing into positions of power. But given that so few people
even realize that this is in fact the problem it seems very unlikely
to me (i.e., most people are going to need to have back-to-back
epiphanies to come up with anything even equivalent to DeMP, let alone
provably better). Unfortunately I see that same blindness in your
comment above. It just doesn't matter what sort of power-sharing
system you come up with: If at its root it relies on SDAPs in existing
government systems (including corporate oligarchies) voluntarily
ceding power to The People it's a hammer that's going to fall whether
you see it or not.
Post by Scott Raney
Post by Scott Raney
Having their hearts in the right
place does not excuse anyone from the responsibility of ensuring that
The People are not harmed as the result of spending millions of
dollars promoting unworkable or even counterproductive ideas.
If you can express your concern without the snarky judgement and
assumption
Post by Scott Raney
sandwich, you may save your entry from a quick trip to the round file.
I’m
Post by Scott Raney
assuming it’s a real concern and not just some cynical dart you’re
throwing.
Post by Scott Raney
:)
It is, but I would concede that it's a pretty minor concern and so can
probably be left out. The odds of them actually harming anyone or
stopping people like us from soldiering on are down there in same the
sub-1% realm that the winning plan will actually amount to anything,
at least to the extent that it follows the rules.
Post by Scott Raney
Post by Scott Raney
And that includes any requirement that the system must prop up
dictators.
Post by Scott Raney
I think I see where you’re coming from. It’s easy for some billionaire to
throw a little change at a problem without having thought through the
consequences deeply in his own mind. On top of that, he’ll likely earn a
substantial dose of celebrity for being all kinds of cuddly things to the
current progressive wave of waking discontent. He might even cover has
ass
Post by Scott Raney
(consciously or un) by injecting a little safety clause that safeguards
his
Post by Scott Raney
very comfortable (elite) position in the current hierarchy.
He's old enough that I doubt he worries about such things. And he
seems to not have any children, hopefully eliminating any bias he
might have against a system that deals with oligarchy in part by
eliminating the custom of inheritance (for the record, though, his
wife was apparently opposed to forming the GCF).
But I wasn't insinuating that I think he has any ulterior motives for
imposing a requirement that the proposed model not destabilize
dictatorships (as a goal or merely as a side-effect). I'm sure they
think imposing such a rule is just a matter of practicality. It's
possible, though, that they also harbor a niggling fear of being held
responsible for being the cause of a revolution in some faraway place.
Post by Scott Raney
If we are going to *crowd-source* a new paradigm, I imagine we’ll need to
get very accustomed to working around (what we judge to be) incomplete or
faulty reasoning without damaging the connection we have with others.
Tricky
Post by Scott Raney
business!
Tell me about it ;-) Fortunately this *doesn't* seem to be an issue
when explaining my system to regular people. Most of them are rightly
skeptical about its chances, but that always seems to originate from a
cynicism that there is any possibility of taking the-powers-that-be
down a notch or two. It seems to not come from perceived flaws in its
goals or mechanisms (like one gets if one proposes something
recognizable as libertarianism or communism). Even the most rabid
constitutionalists I've dealt with (on FB) seem to at least have half
an open mind about the fact that the US constitution has serious flaws
and that there might be better ways to organize a government.
Thanks for the feedback: I'll take another stab at pruning back the snark ;-)
Regards,
Scott
_______________________________________________
Start : a mailing list of the Metagovernment project
http://www.metagovernment.org/
Manage subscription: http://metagovernment.org/mailman/listinfo/start_
metagovernment.org
Jacopo Tolja
2017-07-05 05:48:39 UTC
Permalink
Scott I read your proposal and I can say that you did a really good job and
I believe you have a very strong candidate for the Global Challenge.
Proxyfor.me is an advanced LQFB, were the liquid function is automated.
Still the proposal building does not have a collaborative process and I
believe in this fall short.
Kind Regards
Jacopo
Post by Steve Coffman
First off Scott, kudos to you for having put all of this together. In my
mind, it's well-thought-out and has obviously been a lot of work.
I’m very curious about the outcome of this competition and am hoping we'll
have a chance to peruse the top entries, including the ones that don’t win
the big $$$. I appreciate being able to read yours ahead of time and hope
you do well!
Overall I would say it’s "intelligible" and "complete" enough. I read the
material on Matchism.org a while back, so I already have a deeper
understanding of your project. I think what you’re presenting to this
competition will certainly get the overall idea across.
As far as the level of “snark”
. I think you could probably leave out the
criticism of those running the competition as being a part of the problem,
and still achieve your objective.
"Again this is a decision for The People to make, not some elites running
a contest that seeks to “improve” things without being willing to
compromise on their “elite” status (or the elite status of “leaders”
in other fields or countries) or their preferences for how things should be
done."
"What is wrong, at least with respect [to] what’s best for the human
species as a whole, is for elites of any sort to prescribe the outcomes of
public policy decisionmaking, the people running this competition included."
Also, I noticed a few typos or grammatical errors, like the one in the
line above. (Sorry I didn’t make a note of the others.)
Overall, I find myself agreeing with many aspects of your project. I've
been working on a decision-making *process/structure* of my own and am
surprised to see how many parallels there are between the two. (At this
point I don’t know if I will be submitting mine to the GCF competition as
I’m not sure I'll have the time to complete it before the 9/30 deadline.
And there is a project developing closer to home that may be a more
concrete and practical application. We’ll see.)
Also, I have some questions for *you:*
1. Is there a limit to the number of votes any one proxy can carry? (You
may have stated this on your website but I don’t remember seeing it, and
it’s a lot of material to reread.)
2. Also, would proxies be aware of how many votes they are representing?
3. I can see how being a proxy (particularly for a large number of people)
would be a huge responsibility that might encourage one in that position to
become more deeply familiar with the records of candidates, and the
complexity of proposals being voted on. I can also see how a large segment
of the population, through assigning their votes to a proxy, could
ultimately become disengaged from, or abdicate, their civic responsibility
by no longer paying as much attention to the issues that matter most. (Not
that the malaise of apathy and cynicism generated by our current system is
any better.) I’m curious though if you have a deeper sense of how this
might actually play out
.in real life
.in that regard?
What I *really* like about your Plan is how it would make the
one-size-fits-all dynamic of political parties obsolete.
All the best,
Steve
http://www.matchism.org/refs/GCF_entry.pdf
1) Is it intelligible?
2) Is the argument complete, or are there holes to be filled?
3) Is the level of snark appropriate (I didn't follow the rules, and
make specific arguments about why this is necessary and why any entry
that does follow the rules is doomed to failure).
4) I came in at 5100 words for the description (close to the 5500 word
max), but am well under for the other two sections. Have I "left money
on the table" by doing this?
For anyone who hasn't read matchism.org or my other white papers, this
is a good summary of the system and includes only a skeleton
description of the philosophy behind it. It'd therefore be especially
helpful to get your take on it to make sure I didn't leave too much
out.
Regards,
Scott
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Scott Raney
2017-07-05 23:55:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jacopo Tolja
Scott I read your proposal and I can say that you did a really good job and
I believe you have a very strong candidate for the Global Challenge.
Proxyfor.me is an advanced LQFB, were the liquid function is automated.
There is an overlap in features, for sure. If LQFB was better known
and/or more successful I might have even marketed it this way. But
besides the delegation fail, LQFB makes a big noise about the
multi-proposal feature which I *also* believe doesn't work the way it
was supposed to.
Post by Jacopo Tolja
Still the proposal building does not have a collaborative process and I
believe in this fall short.
I of course disagree: IMHO proposal generation is something that
should be, and probably can only be, left to experts. I would
therefore challenge you to answer these questions:

1) What evidence do you have that this sort of collaboration results
in better proposals? Certainly this has never been shown to be the
case for LQFB and we've never seen this in any of the experiments this
group has run on any of the other decisionmaking systems (Loomio,
Vilfredo, etc.). In all of those examples the more participation there
is at the proposal generation stage the *worse* it gets...

2) Have you looked closely at the various petition oriented
(slacktivism) sites like change.org, avaaz.org, or
petitions.whitehouse.gov? Would you be satisfied with that level of
quality in the proposals on an actual decionmaking system?

3) You may not be aware of this, but one feature of proxyfor.me is
that the proposal owner, unlike everyone else, *does* get to see the
running vote count. And of course gets to see all the comments posted.
With the built-in Q&A and versioning features of proxyfor.me, doesn't
that provide a kind of "collaboration" albeit with primarily a one-way
flow from voter to proposer?

4) If you still believe that "collaboration" is necessary, what's to
prevent people using some other tool (Slack, Google Docs, etc.) to
collaborate prior to exposing it to a large population, the majority
of which would not be interested (or even able) to collaborate on the
actual preparation of a proposal?

5) I think the main, and perhaps only, concern in this area is that
proposals that would pass with large supermajorities might be excluded
from the queue by whoever is maintaining it. My main rebuttal to this
is that is what I've said before: If you don't trust the executive
branch of government you've got worse problems than whether your
proposal generation or decisionmaking system have flaws. It agree,
however, that it might be useful to create a separate site (or even
encourage the use of a slacktivism site) as a screening mechanism
where something that gets an endorsement from X% of the voter rolls
*automatically* gets put into the proxyfor.me queue.

Of course I'm not going to hold my breath that you'll be able to
respond to any of these: The recent example of the block-chain and
economic commons proponents on this list simply crawling back under
their rocks when any challenge to their proposals is raised leads me
to believe that I'm pretty good at poking holes in things ;-)
Regards,
Scott
Post by Jacopo Tolja
Kind Regards
Jacopo
Steve Coffman
2017-07-06 02:51:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jacopo Tolja
Still the proposal building does not have a collaborative process and I
believe in this fall short.
Post by Jacopo Tolja
I of course disagree: IMHO proposal generation is something that
should be, and probably can only be, left to experts.
I think having experts writing proposals is critical. I think the collaborative process is equally so. I don’t see them being mutually exclusive. In my mind, a hybrid is possible if the two are allowed to inform each other.

Experts are more efficient, more experienced, more knowledgeable than the average person, and very likely have some gift and/or passion they bring to the project or proposal.

Collaboration brings people together for a conversation about things that really matter to them. They become informed (often by the experts) not just about the details of the project but about each other as well. This could be very healing for a community, particularly if it’s a regular practice. I would say the connections that follow a community coming together to make agreements about their commons will have repercussions that will last for generations.

I’m a builder by trade and would offer this analogy. A home is much more likely to fit those who it’s built for if the architect, the owners, and the builder all work closely together throughout the entire process.
Steve Coffman
2017-07-09 05:20:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jacopo Tolja
Post by Jacopo Tolja
Still the proposal building does not have a collaborative process and I
believe in this fall short.
Post by Jacopo Tolja
I of course disagree: IMHO proposal generation is something that
should be, and probably can only be, left to experts.
I think having experts writing proposals is critical. I think the collaborative process is equally so. I don’t see them being mutually exclusive. In my mind, a hybrid is possible if the two are allowed to inform each other.
For me, the question is how do we structure an organization (or society) such that all players are meeting at the same table, equal in their sovereignty, and operating at a capacity such that a dynamic synergy emerges from their alliance.

Giving everyone a vote, whether directly or by proxy, is relatively easy. Crowd-sourcing a collaborative social-organism that can successfully manage it's own affairs is the real design challenge. And scaling it to regional and global levels adds an even greater level of complexity.

I actually believe these constraints are surmountable. Indeed, I think to some degree, they’ve already been solved for. The greatest challenge, as I see it, is to bootstrap a System that’s completely unfamiliar...through a collaborative global mindset that doesn’t yet exist.
Scott Raney
2017-07-09 21:06:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Coffman
For me, the question is how do we structure an organization (or society) such that all players are meeting at the same table, equal in their sovereignty, and operating at a capacity such that a dynamic synergy emerges from their alliance.
I believe this to be the natural mode of human decisionmaking: It's
essentially how "public policy" decisions were made by members of our
species for millions of years before technological advances supported
the development of hierarchical forms of government.
Post by Steve Coffman
Giving everyone a vote, whether directly or by proxy, is relatively easy. Crowd-sourcing a collaborative social-organism that can successfully manage it's own affairs is the real design challenge. And scaling it to regional and global levels adds an even greater level of complexity.
It doesn't seem that daunting to me: The trick is to use the *same*
system for all levels, and even the same proposals, at least to the
greatest extent possible. For example everyone votes using the same
system on the same proposal (e.g., the last proposal on proxyfor.me,
the "Idaho stop") but it only becomes binding in those localities
where it passes by majority vote. Eventually natural flow of people
and culture between localities will have the effect of homogenizing
public policy, reducing the level of conflict between localities.
Post by Steve Coffman
I actually believe these constraints are surmountable. Indeed, I think to some degree, they’ve already been solved for. The greatest challenge, as I see it, is to bootstrap a System that’s completely unfamiliar...through a collaborative global mindset that doesn’t yet exist.
I.e., it's a marketing problem, not a technical problem. Proxyfor.me
*seems* to work and can easily be scaled to a worldwide population.
The problem is that people have to *believe* that it can change things
long before it will have any chance to actually do so. This is hard to
do without either having a lot of money, a population that is under
severe stress and so is willing to try anything, and/or a charismatic
leader.

The more scary part for me is that this is a "tipping point" kind of
thing, where once momentum starts to build the transition will occur
incredibly rapidly. Cars and cell phones and even computers were
niche-market kinds of things for years or decades and this worked to
the benefit of the technology because a physical infrastructure had to
be developed to support them, allowing time to work out the bugs.
Cultural changes can happen *much* more rapidly even when the
"technology" isn't quite ready, the various fascist and communist
revolutions being demonstrations of that problem. I worry a lot less
about what level of collaboration and consensus is required to make a
system optimal than about the people getting the idea in their heads
that they deserve something better and things going all haywire when
the technology turns out to have problematic emergent properties.
Regards,
Scott

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