Discussion:
[MG] mediacentric theory, global hedonism
Michal Štěpánek
2018-05-31 07:16:40 UTC
Permalink
Hi everybody,
I went too far, I do not know if we still understand each other. Anyway I
hope somebody will find this interesting.
1.Let us be vague at first and say that the goal of existence is goodness (
8-| , 8D )
2. "definition": goodness = happiness + future generations happiness +
(animal happiness)
3. Measuring happiness!: How are you? Answer on a scale from 0-10.
Happiness is measurable!
4. Now we have a variable that we would like to maximize, but we need to
find some independent variables that maximize it.
5. Any data may be useful, but some are more likely to be useful, like data
from your smartphone sensors, your selected search results etc. = big data
6. So, we got dependent variable and independent variables. Now, we need a
way to intervene. Here comes the mediacentric theory. It is not
bulletproof, but it has a power.
7. We need a smaller sector than the whole media to start with. Let's find
the most effective. I suggest it is the Internet and on the Internet
*search engines*.
8. There is a way how to build Goodness search engine (for marketing
purposes I call it Happiness Search Engine). Would you like to build it?

I hope you will ask for more. Imagine that I would write it in detail, who
would read it? :D

Cheers
m.
--
Michal S.
about.me/micstepanek
Scott Raney
2018-05-31 13:58:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michal Štěpánek
Hi everybody,
I went too far, I do not know if we still understand each other. Anyway I
hope somebody will find this interesting.
1.Let us be vague at first and say that the goal of existence is goodness (
8-| , 8D )
2. "definition": goodness = happiness + future generations happiness +
(animal happiness)
Maybe it's a translation issue I'm not sure "happiness" is what you
want to use here. There's lots of research in this area that shows
that "happiness" is relatively rare, very hard to measure (all kinds
of reporting biases), and not generally considered to be a reasonable
goal. I think we can learn something from the popularity of religions
here: Do they all promise "happiness"? No, they generally promote
peace, harmony, and well-being. I'd even put political and economic
ideals (freedom, power, success, satisfaction of desires, etc.) or
even simple stress reduction ahead of "happiness" as goals.

I'm also increasingly tending to discount "future generations" as an
issue because it's generally an example of replism
(http://www.matchism.org/matchism-code/) and so not a worthy goal in
itself. People should work to protect the future that *they* will
have, but worrying about their genetic descendants is at best a waste
of time and at worst counterproductive because it results in failure
to solve *today's* problems because you've piled on tomorrow's as
well.
Post by Michal Štěpánek
3. Measuring happiness!: How are you? Answer on a scale from 0-10. Happiness
is measurable!
Not counting reporting bias, of course, which is a *huge* problem,
especially if you want to compare success toward achieving the goal
across cultures.
Post by Michal Štěpánek
4. Now we have a variable that we would like to maximize, but we need to
find some independent variables that maximize it.
5. Any data may be useful, but some are more likely to be useful, like data
from your smartphone sensors, your selected search results etc. = big data
6. So, we got dependent variable and independent variables. Now, we need a
way to intervene. Here comes the mediacentric theory. It is not bulletproof,
but it has a power.
7. We need a smaller sector than the whole media to start with. Let's find
the most effective. I suggest it is the Internet and on the Internet *search
engines*.
8. There is a way how to build Goodness search engine (for marketing
purposes I call it Happiness Search Engine). Would you like to build it?
I'm not sure I follow this, but it looks to me like it runs right
smack into the cross-cultural problem above.
Post by Michal Štěpánek
I hope you will ask for more. Imagine that I would write it in detail, who
would read it? :D
I'm inclined to consider this issue in the "how many angels can dance
on the head of a pin" category: We don't need to measure any of these
things, we just need to empower individuals to make public policy
decisions. What they choose is what's important, not the label you
might try to attach to it.
Regards,
Scott
Post by Michal Štěpánek
Cheers
m.
--
Michal S.
about.me/micstepanek
_______________________________________________
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Michal Štěpánek
2018-05-31 19:59:23 UTC
Permalink
Scott,
I am glad you wrote, good ideas. But for me, some meaningful interaction
after a longer time. The rest is in text...
Post by Michal Štěpánek
Post by Michal Štěpánek
Hi everybody,
I went too far, I do not know if we still understand each other. Anyway I
hope somebody will find this interesting.
1.Let us be vague at first and say that the goal of existence is
goodness (
Post by Michal Štěpánek
8-| , 8D )
2. "definition": goodness = happiness + future generations happiness +
(animal happiness)
Maybe it's a translation issue I'm not sure "happiness" is what you
want to use here.
With happiness I refer to "subjective well-being" to this collection
https://worlddatabaseofhappiness.eur.nl/
As a method of measurement I like smartphone Experince Sampling Method.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experience_sampling_method
Post by Michal Štěpánek
There's lots of research in this area that shows
that "happiness" is relatively rare, very hard to measure (all kinds
of reporting biases),
I some sense you are right, but I hope this article will calm your worries
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/300332706_What_We_Have_Learnt_About_Happiness
Post by Michal Štěpánek
and not generally considered to be a reasonable
goal.
True, not a good goal for an individual, the intention of happiness ruins a
lot of happiness ;). But as a measure it should be ok.
Post by Michal Štěpánek
I think we can learn something from the popularity of religions
here: Do they all promise "happiness"? No, they generally promote
peace, harmony, and well-being. I'd even put political and economic
ideals (freedom, power, success, satisfaction of desires, etc.) or
even simple stress reduction ahead of "happiness" as goals.
Yes. Happiness is generaly ment individualistically. But if you measure it
for society, it is not the same happiness and it includes a lot from peace,
harmony, well-being, freedom, success, satisfaction.

I'm also increasingly tending to discount "future generations" as an
Post by Michal Štěpánek
issue because it's generally an example of replism
(http://www.matchism.org/matchism-code/) and so not a worthy goal in
itself. People should work to protect the future that *they* will
have, but worrying about their genetic descendants is at best a waste
of time and at worst counterproductive because it results in failure
to solve *today's* problems because you've piled on tomorrow's as
well.
Sure, it is not so much important as it seems in the equation. Still it has
some secondary importance, IMHO.
Post by Michal Štěpánek
Post by Michal Štěpánek
3. Measuring happiness!: How are you? Answer on a scale from 0-10.
Happiness
Post by Michal Štěpánek
is measurable!
Not counting reporting bias, of course, which is a *huge* problem,
especially if you want to compare success toward achieving the goal
across cultures.
As far as I know there is only a few possible reporting biases.
Misunderstanding question. Forced answer (somebody answering on one's
bahalf). Inability to admit unhappiness, ego issue. But that is not ruining
it, these are acceptable biases.
Post by Michal Štěpánek
Post by Michal Štěpánek
4. Now we have a variable that we would like to maximize, but we need to
find some independent variables that maximize it.
5. Any data may be useful, but some are more likely to be useful, like
data
Post by Michal Štěpánek
from your smartphone sensors, your selected search results etc. = big
data
Post by Michal Štěpánek
6. So, we got dependent variable and independent variables. Now, we need
a
Post by Michal Štěpánek
way to intervene. Here comes the mediacentric theory. It is not
bulletproof,
Post by Michal Štěpánek
but it has a power.
7. We need a smaller sector than the whole media to start with. Let's
find
Post by Michal Štěpánek
the most effective. I suggest it is the Internet and on the Internet
*search
Post by Michal Štěpánek
engines*.
8. There is a way how to build Goodness search engine (for marketing
purposes I call it Happiness Search Engine). Would you like to build it?
I'm not sure I follow this, but it looks to me like it runs right
smack into the cross-cultural problem above.
Post by Michal Štěpánek
I hope you will ask for more. Imagine that I would write it in detail,
who
Post by Michal Štěpánek
would read it? :D
I'm inclined to consider this issue in the "how many angels can dance
on the head of a pin" category: We don't need to measure any of these
things, we just need to empower individuals to make public policy
decisions.
No, to do it properly, we do need to measure it :D Not just believe we are
doing it correct :)
Post by Michal Štěpánek
What they choose is what's important, not the label you
might try to attach to it.
What they choose is not the best :/. And there is the voting mehtod issue :/
Post by Michal Štěpánek
Regards,
Scott
Post by Michal Štěpánek
Cheers
m.
--
Michal S.
about.me/micstepanek
_______________________________________________
Start : a mailing list of the Metagovernment project
http://www.metagovernment.org/
Manage subscription: http://metagovernment.org/mailman/listinfo/start_
metagovernment.org
--
Michal S.
about.me/micstepanek
Scott Raney
2018-06-01 16:53:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michal Štěpánek
Scott,
I am glad you wrote, good ideas. But for me, some meaningful interaction
after a longer time. The rest is in text...
This is an area I'm very interested in too because these measurements
can help us with the *empirical* process of choosing features of
social and political systems. It always raises a red flag for me when
some amateur social engineer (aka SJW) says we need to, for example,
increase gender equality because this claim is usually merely a result
of their own biases and personality type, This is as an extremely poor
guide: The exact same kind of bias leads a different group of people
to facilitate the selection of authoritarian leaders who will seek to
*increase* inequality. But when you can show that increasing gender
equality (or reducing power distance, or changing a variety of other
social/cultural features) leads to increased subjective well-being
(SWB) of *all* people (not just women) in a culture it means it's good
social engineering practice to add that to the to-do list.

I think we mostly differ in emphasis: I'm not that interested in
having increasing SWB as a goal in itself, but only in using it to
help make decisions about what social/cultural norms to promote and
which to suppress. For example, this (rather formidable) paper claims
that increasing gender equality and decreasing power distance leads to
higher SWB:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4541708/
Post by Michal Štěpánek
Post by Scott Raney
Maybe it's a translation issue I'm not sure "happiness" is what you
want to use here.
With happiness I refer to "subjective well-being" to this collection
https://worlddatabaseofhappiness.eur.nl/
Right: We should probably stick to the current technical term for this (SWB).
Post by Michal Štěpánek
As a method of measurement I like smartphone Experince Sampling Method.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experience_sampling_method
This is certainly better than a single question on a paper and pencil
survey, but still doesn't deal with the reporting bias issue.
Post by Michal Štěpánek
Post by Scott Raney
There's lots of research in this area that shows
that "happiness" is relatively rare, very hard to measure (all kinds
of reporting biases),
I some sense you are right, but I hope this article will calm your worries
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/300332706_What_We_Have_Learnt_About_Happiness
Sorry, not really. This is a hot research topic, but the most
convincing evidence for me is anecdotal: My wife is from Taiwan and
even after 30 years together I'm still regularly surprised by how
different our perspectives are on what's important in life. A lot of
it is just the usual male/female differences, but cultural factors are
an even bigger issue. If you ask an Asian if they're "happy", they're
as likely as not going to respond "What difference does that make?"
and this attitude will of course be reflected in their responses on
questionnaires. Veenhoven, as is the case with most researchers
(especially in psychology), along with most of his subjects are WEIRD
(Western, Educated, Industrialized, Rich, and Democratic
http://www.matchism.org/refs/Henrich_2010_WeirdestPeople.pdf) and they
really don't deal with east Asians or people in small-scale societies
much or very well. The issue is maybe a little better if you use SWB
instead of "happiness", but bias remains. Fortunately the research is
useful for making social engineering decisions even if you can't use
it to directly compare countries/governments/customs/etc.

(snip)
Post by Michal Štěpánek
As far as I know there is only a few possible reporting biases.
Misunderstanding question. Forced answer (somebody answering on one's
bahalf). Inability to admit unhappiness, ego issue. But that is not ruining
it, these are acceptable biases.
I think it's more complicated than that: It's not just a matter of
vocabulary, it's just that people in some countries (and I'll avoid
the issue of whether it's genetic or cultural) just don't *think*
about the question "Am I happy?" as much as we WEIRD people do. This
leads to all kinds of systematic biases most importantly that they
tend make lifestyle choices that may exchange "happiness" for money or
family relationships or increasing their chances having a better next
life or whatever. Once they've made a choice like that any claims that
there are systematic cross-cultural differences in happiness (or even
SWB) become completely bogus. But, again, this is only a problem if
you try to set "increasing SWB" as a goal: It's not a problem if you
just use SWB assessments as a tool to help choose among alternative
social engineering tweaks.
Post by Michal Štěpánek
Post by Scott Raney
I'm inclined to consider this issue in the "how many angels can dance
on the head of a pin" category: We don't need to measure any of these
things, we just need to empower individuals to make public policy
decisions.
No, to do it properly, we do need to measure it :D Not just believe we are
doing it correct :)
But it's not just the measurement that's flawed, it's the underlying
philosophical claim that "happiness is what needs to be optimized". By
doing that you've taken it upon yourself to decide for The People what
it is that needs to be optimized, whereas (of course) I say what needs
to be optimized is *also* something that The People need to decide on
(in aggregate, since different people will choose to optimize
different things). And what gets optimized will be an emergent
property of the decisions they make on individual proposals, not
something they have to philosophize about and decide on first.
Regards,
Scott

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Michal Štěpánek
2018-06-01 19:29:07 UTC
Permalink
(snip)
Post by Scott Raney
Post by Michal Štěpánek
Post by Scott Raney
I'm inclined to consider this issue in the "how many angels can dance
on the head of a pin" category: We don't need to measure any of these
things, we just need to empower individuals to make public policy
decisions.
No, to do it properly, we do need to measure it :D Not just believe we
are
Post by Michal Štěpánek
doing it correct :)
But it's not just the measurement that's flawed, it's the underlying
philosophical claim that "happiness is what needs to be optimized". By
doing that you've taken it upon yourself to decide for The People what
it is that needs to be optimized, whereas (of course) I say what needs
to be optimized is *also* something that The People need to decide on
(in aggregate, since different people will choose to optimize
different things). And what gets optimized will be an emergent
property of the decisions they make on individual proposals, not
something they have to philosophize about and decide on first.
ok, not happiness, not SWB.
The most precise name is "affect balance". It is based on the assumption
that we have affects, that we can give them moral value and that the brain
can sum the moral values in one number. Is this more crosscultural?
Anyway, I may do philosophical decisions, I just would like to provide one
more search engine. Your philosophical decisions might be more problematic,
bacause your system needs local decision-making monopoly.
What do you think?

Regards,
Post by Scott Raney
Scott
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Michal Štěpánek
2018-06-08 20:48:19 UTC
Permalink
As for the measurement and goal distinction. I am not sure what to expect...
In the first phase, the goal of the Positive Affect Search Engine is
simple. Maximize affect balance of individual users.
Next, we will see if it will hurt the common sense of justice, equality.
Whether there will be some detrimental stable social formations, that will
resist the power of the basic algorithm, etc.

Well, to return your job... Do you think that designing systems for
societies with different psychological health is different?

Regards,
Michal
Post by Michal Štěpánek
Scott,
I was hoping that you will reply even to the email I will repost now :)
I will try to sum it up again.
1. Objective existence is meaningless.
2. Subjective existence is meaningful if is felt as positive, felt like a
positive affect.
Is there anything else that gives existence meaning? Why optimize anything
else that is not "the meaning"? :)
Other replies are inline...
(snip)
Also I am not entirely in the "idea of progress", progress is
meaningless if
you do not enjoy life while progress is done.
BS: Look into this thing called "delayed gratification". It's the main
thing that separates successful humans from the rest. "No pain, no
gain" is the modern athlete's cliche for this, and I believe it's a
useful rule of thumb in almost every domain.
My main goal is not succes. I just wanted to say that the if the average
affect balance is not higer with delayed gratification than it is not worh
it. But it guess it will be quite often that the delayed gratification will
make your average higher.
If we push too strong for
progress, I think that we believe that we will enjoy life later. So the
idea
of enjoyment and emotions is there in "progress", just in an odd way.
And Eudaimonia feels like progress. Is it like progress?
Why I like "eudaimonia", at least as Plato and other early
philosophers conceived of it, is that it least has an element of
objective assessment to it. The problem with using SWB as a metric,
and especially with using it as a goal, is that it doesn't provide any
check on exploitative behavior (or lack of virtue, as Plato would call
it). For example, in a society that allows slavery, you can have very
high SWB because those who are not slaves benefit from the production
of those who are. And of course the SWB of slaves doesn't enter into
the equation because, well, they're not people. Even that OECD report
mentions at least twice how the Israeli's SWB scores reflect how
they've gamed the system by not counting the unimaginable suffering
they continuously inflict on the Palestinians. But the same goes for
SDAPs in all domains (organized crime, misrepresentative democracy,
the US advertising and financial services industries, any country with
a large immigrant labor force, etc.): The people within the exploiting
group have high SWB scores whereas those they are exploiting are a
minority and usually a substantially undercounted minority. The old
usage of eudaimonia has a correction for this because what is a good
life also includes social feedback on whether the individual's
behavior is/was good for the group, not just for themselves. I believe
people (at least neurotypicals) internally do this calculation
automatically and this will be reflected in their decisionmaking even
if it's hard to quantify in a survey. Which, again, is why I recommend
that we concentrate on fixing the decisionmaking system and that
increasing "happiness" will just be an emergent phenomenon of using a
system that actually reflects the preferences of the majority.
Well cannot automate eudaimonia measurement and correct it by affect
balance, but I can automate affect balance measurement and correct the
algorithm by eudaimonia.
I know there is mo where the basic algorithm needs to be modified, but I
got not summary yet.
Regards,
Scott
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--
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about.me/micstepanek
--
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about.me/micstepanek
Michal Štěpánek
2018-06-09 11:59:44 UTC
Permalink
So, I was thinking again :D and ...
I could even make it that the user will be able to switch philosophy(goal)
of the search engine slightly. Like she may need to focus on her average
personal or total personal affect first and she may switch to public
average affect later.
Still, imho, at first the options will mean pretty much the same, because
the sampling and computation error is likely to be more significant than
the difference between the goals.
What do you think?

Regards,
Michal
Post by Michal Štěpánek
As for the measurement and goal distinction. I am not sure what to expect...
In the first phase, the goal of the Positive Affect Search Engine is
simple. Maximize affect balance of individual users.
Next, we will see if it will hurt the common sense of justice, equality.
Whether there will be some detrimental stable social formations, that will
resist the power of the basic algorithm, etc.
Well, to return your job... Do you think that designing systems for
societies with different psychological health is different?
Regards,
Michal
Post by Michal Štěpánek
Scott,
I was hoping that you will reply even to the email I will repost now :)
I will try to sum it up again.
1. Objective existence is meaningless.
2. Subjective existence is meaningful if is felt as positive, felt like a
positive affect.
Is there anything else that gives existence meaning? Why optimize
anything else that is not "the meaning"? :)
Other replies are inline...
(snip)
Also I am not entirely in the "idea of progress", progress is
meaningless if
you do not enjoy life while progress is done.
BS: Look into this thing called "delayed gratification". It's the main
thing that separates successful humans from the rest. "No pain, no
gain" is the modern athlete's cliche for this, and I believe it's a
useful rule of thumb in almost every domain.
My main goal is not succes. I just wanted to say that the if the average
affect balance is not higer with delayed gratification than it is not worh
it. But it guess it will be quite often that the delayed gratification will
make your average higher.
If we push too strong for
progress, I think that we believe that we will enjoy life later. So
the idea
of enjoyment and emotions is there in "progress", just in an odd way.
And Eudaimonia feels like progress. Is it like progress?
Why I like "eudaimonia", at least as Plato and other early
philosophers conceived of it, is that it least has an element of
objective assessment to it. The problem with using SWB as a metric,
and especially with using it as a goal, is that it doesn't provide any
check on exploitative behavior (or lack of virtue, as Plato would call
it). For example, in a society that allows slavery, you can have very
high SWB because those who are not slaves benefit from the production
of those who are. And of course the SWB of slaves doesn't enter into
the equation because, well, they're not people. Even that OECD report
mentions at least twice how the Israeli's SWB scores reflect how
they've gamed the system by not counting the unimaginable suffering
they continuously inflict on the Palestinians. But the same goes for
SDAPs in all domains (organized crime, misrepresentative democracy,
the US advertising and financial services industries, any country with
a large immigrant labor force, etc.): The people within the exploiting
group have high SWB scores whereas those they are exploiting are a
minority and usually a substantially undercounted minority. The old
usage of eudaimonia has a correction for this because what is a good
life also includes social feedback on whether the individual's
behavior is/was good for the group, not just for themselves. I believe
people (at least neurotypicals) internally do this calculation
automatically and this will be reflected in their decisionmaking even
if it's hard to quantify in a survey. Which, again, is why I recommend
that we concentrate on fixing the decisionmaking system and that
increasing "happiness" will just be an emergent phenomenon of using a
system that actually reflects the preferences of the majority.
Well cannot automate eudaimonia measurement and correct it by affect
balance, but I can automate affect balance measurement and correct the
algorithm by eudaimonia.
I know there is mo where the basic algorithm needs to be modified, but I
got not summary yet.
Regards,
Scott
_______________________________________________
Start : a mailing list of the Metagovernment project
http://www.metagovernment.org/
Manage subscription: http://metagovernment.org/mail
man/listinfo/start_metagovernment.org
--
Michal S.
about.me/micstepanek
--
Michal S.
about.me/micstepanek
--
Michal S.
about.me/micstepanek
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